Game & Audiobook Direction
with Daniel Jewel
High Notes - transcript
Welcome to High Notes, a podcast on the art and business of voice. My name is Melissa and I've worked commercially with my voice for over 27 years. In this podcast, I'll be talking to those who consistently hit the high notes in our industry and will be exploring the craft and creativity behind the business. Whether you're a seasoned voice professional or simply curious about the magic that happens in front or behind the microphone, this podcast is your backstage pass to learning just some of the secrets of the trade. Make sure you never miss an episode by subscribing to High Notes on your favourite podcast app. And be sure to check out the show notes at brava.uk.com/podcast for more information about this episode and more.
M: In this episode of High Notes, I'm joined by award-winning producer, screenwriter, games and audiobook director and photographer, Daniel Jewell. Daniel is a lead voice director for AAA game projects for studios including Ubisoft, EA Games, Massive Entertainment and Warner Bros. Interactive. He's worked on games including Skull & Bones, Watchdog Legion featuring Stormzy, Division 2, Hit 2 and Sea of Solitude. He's also directed exclusive content and audio books for the Harry Potter series, including the Olivier and Tony Award-winning West End cast of the hit play, The Cursed Child. He's directed many well-known actors for Audible, including Helena Bonham Carter, Ncuti Gatwa, Toby Jones, and Jesse Buckley. I spoke to Daniel about his incredible body of work, and he shared some insights on the importance of failure, what to do when times are tough, and what it feels like to be shortlisted for an Oscar.
High Notes, a podcast on the art and business of voice.
M: Good morning, Daniel. Thank you so much for joining us today. I believe you had a late-night last night.
D: Yes, I'm working on a feature script and I've got an amazing, well, he's going to be a co-writer with me and so we were working fairly late last night, but otherwise I'm fine.
M: The life of creatives, hey? So listen, we're really excited to speak to you today. I'm going to delve straight in. Let's go right back to the beginning. I know you had a really creative childhood. Can you talk to us about what that was like?
D: Yeah, I grew up in London, North London in Kilburn. My parents are classical musicians. So I think what was great about that is obviously the music's amazing. The dedication they used to put into pursuing their art was phenomenal. They were doing five hours practice a day and I could see that to get good at something took a lot of work and a lot of hours. So I think that was very valuable. Also that you could do something creative as a job wasn't a mystery to me because I would see my, I would look through the windows of this room we had where my dad used to rehearse with his string quartet and see them practicing. And I also saw it was a group activity. It wasn't just something you did on your own. So I think all that's very helpful for working in film and TV and podcasts and games, etc, and audio, of course. And then also just that friends were from all over the world. So I grew up in a very genuinely, you know, outside my streets. It was very multicultural. We had Irish neighbours, some Jamaica neighbours, some Polish neighbours. So I grew up in a very multicultural place. But then also all my parents' friends were from all over the world as well. So I think definitely had a big impact on me.
M: It sounds magical. One thing we talk about a lot here is the craft of voice acting and the fact that you have to work at it continuously, forever. And for you seeing that, especially with musicians, if you don't practice, I remember those days of not practicing enough. But for you to actually witness that and also to kind of tap into that community must have been an incredible experience.
M: Moving on a little bit, when did you discover your love of film and how did those early experiences impact that, if at all?
D: My mother was always taking me to museums, art galleries, concerts etc. So I think she played a part in that and both my parents used to play in this. I think Carl Davis was the conductor. He used to have a silent movie orchestra and they used to play in that. So I used to be taken as a kid to watch these, I think at the Barbican, something like that one, South Bank. Big screens with like city lights and... We had Napoleon on three screens and stuff like that. So I was very much aware of sound and music and their impact on film. And I think that really stuck with me. And from then on, I was very interested in films and going into, as a teenager, I would be watching all the Scorsese's films and Coppola's films and a lot of what we would deem, I guess, foreign language films as well, Kurosawa, et cetera. And I think that's what got me into films basically. And also the impact audio makes on the movies.
M: Yeah, I'm just thinking of you as a child being in the Barbican watching these silent movies with your parents bringing it to life. What an incredible experience. I saw that you went to Bristol University and after that Oxford. Yeah. How did those experiences feed into your work as a writer, producer and director, do you think?
D: I met this filmmaker when I was, you know, again in my teenage years and he said, look, film school is totally valid, but you don't have to go to film school, you can learn a lot of those skills as you're pursuing your career. And he advised to get a liberal arts degree, do English history, something like that. So I always loved history. So I took that advice and I studied history. I mean, I think film school would have been better. I don't know if I was ready at that stage to be making very deep and meaningful films. I'm kind of glad I did that. And I think when you're learning different periods of history and you have to always, with history, argue both sides, I think that gives you a lot of empathy into someone you might disagree with. If you're writing, I don't know, an antagonist, you have to give them a real point of view and a real reason. or an argument that feels believable. So I'm doing that in the script I'm doing right now. We have an antagonist, how do you humanize them and give them a real point of view. So I found it useful. I think it probably slowed me down. Maybe other people might be ready to make a feature film and go to one of the great film schools and come straight out. I don't think I was ready to do that. So I think it worked for me, but equally film school works for other people. Yeah.
M: Do you know what? You've picked up on something quite close to my heart. The words of my father ringing in my ears about do a liberal arts degree. Obviously, the conversation is changing right now for young people. But I do look back and think, oh, for me, he was absolutely right, because I'm saying to my children now, it's very unlikely you'll have that chance again to immerse yourself in classics or English literature or history. And to have those three years of learning how to put forward an argument, like you say, extending your general knowledge in those areas is something that I think is really hard as you get older. And then taking that and applying it to a craft for me really worked. There's never a day that goes past where I don't feel really grateful that I read English literature. And I'm not sure if I would have the time to do that right now, to go back and immerse myself. So it's really fascinating to hear you say that.
M: Can you tell us what your first job as a director was? And were there any particular challenges within that?
D: My first job I ever got was a runner. So I used to run at Ridley Scott's company called The Mill. And I think actually that's really good. I remember I was chatting to a friend of mine who works at a sound studio and he goes, so the runner is the only person who has access to every room. If you're a sound episode director, you can just go in your room. You can't walk in to next door and see what they're doing. So I think that was actually quite good to do. So I did that. I then got a job because I'd studied history as a researcher for a couple of directors in London. They were doing historical documentaries or TV series. So I would research for them. And it took, it probably took a long time. I can't remember the terms of it, but it took several years for me to direct something. That was, I was making, I pitched an idea to Channel 4 for a documentary about how the smoking ban was affecting the Shisha cafes on Edgware Road, because I lived on them close to the edge of a road. And they declined it basically, because I was after, I think I was pitching a one hour episode. And then I said, look, can I have some feedback? And they said, we did actually like your idea, we don't think it merits an hour. And actually we have this three minute wonders program, where maybe I'll send your details to them. And then they picked up the idea to do, I think, four three-minute documentaries set in that area. And it came just before or after the Channel 4 News. So that was my first job as a director. And I think documentaries, I've always found interesting because I studied history and I liked documentaries, but also the budgets are way lower. So they would never, no one would ever trust me with a drama at that stage in my career. So those were relatively small budget. They were a few thousand pounds per episode, something like that. So that was my first job directing. It was actually quite hard. I think I'll definitely take about 50% of the blame. I kind of came out thinking I'll get a steady cam and it'll all feel like a Scorsese movie. And I didn't understand enough the mechanics of storytelling, the structure, that even in documentaries, you have to have your setup, your backstory, the beats of story still has to be within that. So they cut my four programs to two, but I still got two broadcast credits from that. So that was the first thing I did. I never experienced I had lawyers checking my work, like some of the shots they didn't like because Shisha looks very beautiful where it's exhaled and they're like, I think you're promoting smoking at this stage and so beautiful shots had to be cut. So that was my first experience within a system. So it was, that was tough at the time, but actually I think it was a good experience, yeah.
M: You pick up on something I think that it must be so hard as a director, which is where your creative vision is clipped by the budget holders. How's that as an experience when you want to do something and you're told, no, you can't do it? I'm fascinated.
D: I'll be honest, I find it very hard. I find it quite scary at the time. But I really think I was not easy to work with at that stage because I was very naive. And I didn't, like I said, I wasn't delivering good enough stories at that time. I didn't understand the mechanics of storytelling enough. But it was a very harsh experience. It was a sobering experience where they're like, only two of your films are good enough to broadcast. We're cutting to... they brought an outside editor in, et cetera. So I found that very hard. And after that, I actually said, well, you know what? I took on board the positives of that lesson, I think, because it was again, quite a harsh first lesson. But then I think after that, I started making short films and I raised the money myself. So I wouldn't be put in that position where someone could say, well, you know what, actually, we don't like any of the shots, we don't like your title sequence, that's gone. And fair enough, because they're delivering to a channel, et cetera. But after that, I started making my own short films. And then the first one I did, got selected for London Film Festival. The second one I did got selected for London Film Festival, went around the world. So I was like, well, I focus more on my storytelling skills and improve those, but then I kept my editorial control. And I've tried to do that since, because as filmmakers or any kind of artists, you put so much into these projects. And then if I think, I always take good notes and I seek out criticism because you don't want to just, you really, I... The project I'm working on now, I think I'm 10 drops into this feature screenplay, and I'm still seeking out notes and trying to make it better. So it's not from an ego point of view, but I think if a project is very personal to you, if you can find a way where you have some kind of editorial control, then that is a better way to do it. Otherwise, it's not really worth it to me if that can happen later down the line. You can have some nightmare stories, I think.
M: You mentioned that you used to be a runner for Ridley Scott's company. You've worked with some really well-known directors in your time and you also went on to work with Sir Derek Jacobi on Turtlebaum. What were those experiences like for you?
D: Yeah that project Sidney Turtlebaum, was me and my friend Rafeal who was a writer and I was producer and he had this really hilarious sort of black comedy set in London's Jewish community and we went to what was that cafe on Old Compton Street? District Valerie. We used to sit in Oh yeah. District Valerie on Old Compton Street, work on the script, work on how we were going to do it. And again, I wanted to make, no actually we made this with the UK Jewish Film Festival, who were a delight to work with. They were I had the opposite experience with them than other people that I've worked with. And they gave us the budget. They left us alone. And then they came in with a guy who sadly passed away called Asher Taleem. He looked at the edit and he goes, I don't like the shot of that bus. We go, okay, no problem. We'll take it out. And do you have any other notes? He goes, No, that's it. And so that was one of the times I worked within an organisation where they really empowered us and let us do that. And I didn't have Derek Jacoby on our list for the lead, but I had gone to maybe, I got 11 nos, and then someone said, what about Derek Jacoby? And we asked him, and he said, oh, I get to sing in this project and that you're actually filming around the corner for me. So yeah, I'll do it. I was prepared to get 10, 11 nos before we got that yes from Derek. We were shortlisted for an Oscar, and we got BIFA nominated. I mean, that was a weird experience because I was literally on a table next to Daniel Day-Lewis at the BIFAs. everyone thought we're gonna get Oscar nominated, we were in the Hollywood Reporter. So I that was one of the first dramas that I produced. I thought this is really easy. Right? This is quite easy. It seems to be easy. And then I've just had another short I've produced set in Iran, or I'm sorry, exec producer on that's just got qualified for the Oscars. And that's probably more than a 10-year gap. So it took me it's taken me over 10 years to get back to that stage with another film. So it's not easy at all. We just got I know what it was beginners luck, everything aligned, but to answer Derek Jacobi is a lovely person. He comes with no ego whatsoever. We'd never made a drama before. He didn't have the creature comforts that he might be. He was in Gladiator, and obviously as well as his stage career, he's done many movies and TV shows, but he couldn't have been more kind and charming. And he made the film really.
M: Looking at your work, I've noticed that you have so many links to the Middle East and it appears that you have, you said that you grew up in a very multicultural area. What other connections do you have to telling these stories? Does that all come from your childhood experiences?
D: I studied history so I've always been interested in the Middle East and I spent probably 10 years living around the Edgware Road. I became friends with many Arab and Persian people who lived in that area and that community. And so whether it's producer or director, I started making documentaries there. That's the Channel 4 ones I made. I made a documentary about British Iranian hip hop artists who live on that road. And that was shown at the British Museum's Iran exhibition. I've just produced the short film set in Iran that's now Oscar qualified. And sorry, executive produced, I must clarify that. But I feel that if we talk about the Middle East, it's an area that's very negatively stereotyped in whether it's the media, whether it's films. And so I think there's a huge gap in terms of my experience being welcomed into that community in London where the hospitality, the welcome, the kindness is so huge versus the portrayal in the media and movies. And there's such an unfairness there that I think generally making films set in that area that kind of counteract that is a really positive thing to do. And I think it's important that I also produce work of directors from that region who are trying to tell their own stories. I think that's very important as well. I think it's just an area that fascinates me. I've started traveling there as well. It's just got such a long and incredible history.
M: It's an amazing part of the world. I've spent quite some time in various countries and I'm always amazed by just the warmth that you get from people everywhere and anywhere. And I always think, imagine if that was the other way around and somebody, I don't know, got dropped off in Bristol, would they be invited in for supper? Probably not.
D: There was the hostile environment, there's stop the boats. That's how our government welcomes people. We're talking about individual people and you can see what's happening. in Palestine right now and do you know what I mean? And obviously take a country like Iraq, this is the cradle of civilization that has a multi-thousand year history. But then when we say Iraq now, we're immediately thinking about this very small period of time where these very unjust wars have been visited upon them. And that shouldn't define such an amazing place. Do you know what I mean?
M: When we sit down and take the time to talk about it, it clearly makes so much sense. It's rich in culture and history and... And storytelling is so much a part of those cultures. And yet I found more and more that people very rarely sit down and talk about this in the public arena.
D: What's obviously amazing now is with shows like Rami and Mo, people are telling their own stories and they're showing their community in a way that is nuanced and subtle and non-stereotypical. So I think things are slowly changing.
M: I could talk about your film work all day, but let's move on to your games and working specifically with voice actors. You're a lead voice director for AAA game projects for studios including Ubisoft, EA, Massive Entertainment, Warner Brothers Interactive, the list goes on. How did you move into directing games?
D: It came through a documentary I was working at Pinewood Studios. I pitched this idea of making a documentary about foley artists, who are the people who create sound effects for movies after they're made. So every cloth move or cup sound or door shutting to all sorts of the sound. And I remember one of the foley artists said that he had to, I think it was in one of the Harry Potter films, there were spiders on roller skates. So making the sounds of that. So it can be incredibly creative, you know, the sound of a foot on snow, et cetera. So I was making a film about them. And this documentary did really well. We had 150 million views online. I mean, I thought it was a very obscure subject matter that only I would be interested in, but it went, we had a Vimeo short of the week and then that got cut down and it went viral before TikTok, et cetera. And so the team there were like really happy with how I portrayed them. And they said, look, we're also now not just doing films, we're going to games. Would you like to direct a few days of the game project? We're just starting as a guy called Glen Gathard, who's been a big supporter of me throughout my career for my shorts. and he's one of the heads of sound now at Molinare. And he said, look, we've got a few days on the game, would you like to direct the actors? And I was like, sure. And so I did that for a few days and they were happy with the results. And then I think that game went on for over a year. And then from there, I got hired on another one. I've worked on quite a few Ubisoft projects that they seem very nice to work with. And for me as the director, when you're working in film, if you're a successful director, you're probably making a short film or a feature film every three to five years sometimes, or there's big gaps where you're not directing actors. And when you do, you're on set with them for very few days. But then in games, I direct maybe four actors every day. Some could be straight out of drama school, some could be, we had Simon Callow doing one, for example. And so that was amazing for me. I've become a much better director because of working with voice actors in games. So it's been a real pleasure really.
M: You've worked on so many incredible titles. Can you talk us through some of those and what that experience of directing the voice cast was like? Any challenges in that? Any highs? Any lows?
D: I would say with, we did Watch Dogs Legion, which is this kind of spy thriller set in London, and they had a Canadian team who came over and there were, I think, three or four, or three directors, and I was one of them. And a lot of the dialogue was about different communities within London. We had Northern Irish characters, Irish characters, we had Russian characters, Nigerian characters, so we had all these amazing voices from multicultural communities in London. And... Some of the dialects, because they were written by Canadians, they didn't understand the nuances of maybe all those different kind of dialects or slang. And so they were very kind that they let us as directors say, well, you know, the character from this part of London would actually use this swear word or say this. And so they allowed us to, we weren't rewriting, they were the writers, but just add little things that made it more authentic. So I found that very empowering that the Ubisoft team were like, yeah, absolutely. If I wouldn't obviously know an Irish slang, but then they would allow the actor to pepper stuff in. So I think that's the best case where you have people willing to collaborate and listen and bring things to life. So I think they also came and mapped London so you could literally walk around every street in that game. So I think that was very special to me because it was set in London and then the creative process was really great.
M: You know, that sounds such a fascinating title to work on. We've actually got, BRAVA’s got an incredible accent and dialect coach from America coming over, who is very renowned, and we are going to be digging deep into those London characterisations. So it's really interesting that you talk about that right now. I'd love to play the game, actually.
D: And then just to talk about the actors, I think what's lovely about a game like that is that there were, say, maybe 12 lead characters, like six were male, six were female, and... We then got to work with those same actors, again, probably over 18 months, because games are so long lasting that you became friends with these actors, you found a good way to work. And I think they weren't just coming in for a four-hour session and leaving, they were coming back for multiple sessions. So I think that was a really nice way to work.
M: Sounds like a dream gig, to be honest. A lot of the stuff I do are four-hour sessions in and out.
M: Let's move on to audiobooks. How did you become involved in this particular area of work?
D: Yeah, I think it's one of those things that once people trust you with a couple of projects, that they'll come. Most of the jobs you get a kind of word of mouth. I think that's the funny thing and maybe not everyone knows when this will come into the industry, but if you get a couple of jobs and you deliver on them, then people will then start offering yourself. Pottermore wanted to take the cast of the Cursed Child, I don't know the full lore of Harry Potter, but there's a ritual where they go to the train station in London, where the characters went to Hogwarts, but because of COVID, they couldn't go and do that. And so they created an audio journey to Hogwarts with the Cursed Child cast. So that was lovely to work with them. So that was the first one I did. And then basically talking about the ups and downs of working in the industry, my game work had gone quiet. I think that just... sometimes happens. And so for the first time after maybe five years, I had to pitch myself for new projects. And I got to meet a guy called Chris at Audible, who connected me with Mariele Runacre-Temple who's a director, casting director and one of the heads at Audible. And she kindly offered me to co-direct a new adaptation of David Copperfield with Ncuti Gatwa. We had Helena Bonham Carter, Toby Jones, like incredible cast. So that wouldn't have happened if my game work hadn't gone quiet. So... I think careers, you think you're in control, but really sometimes something that feels like a loss can then turn out to create something that's really fabulous. I think we worked on that for about six months and I think what Audible are doing incredible now that they're doing Dolby Atmos, they have scores, they really are movies without the picture and they have foley put on them. So they're really bringing, I think, audio books to another level. I guess they will be an audio drama, be considered as. So that experience was incredible, really.
M: Yeah, they sound amazing and big budgets, big productions. Probably one of the, one of the titles that every voice actor would love to work on.
M: So let's talk a bit about skills that you look for in voice actors. I'm really interested in that. Can you share any insights that would help certainly our network of voice actors when auditioning for titles or games?
D: Yes, as a director working in games and audio, I think we often don't have the power to choose. It's usually the studio, the casting director. I think at Audible, they did ask my opinion on certain casting, but I certainly wasn't making the final call. I think especially with games, it's the studios. So I think if actors are going for, want to work in games, they really should probably find the casting director at the big post-production studios in London. They should make friends with them. I think there were certain events, a BAFTA that maybe some people can access as well. They have a BAFTA games mixer. Then probably making some connections at places like Ubisoft, the bigger studios, that would be very helpful because they're really the decision makers. I do get sent auditions and I do often get asked to direct auditions and then they'll ask for my opinion and that will be part of kind of the process. So I think for me, when I'm looking at an actor is, is their sight reading good? Do you mean are they going to be able to flow through a session? Because I think what's hard for voice actors, they often won't have the script in advance. So you're coming in to a studio and people are like, okay, let's give you a little bit of context and then it's okay, go. I work with a lot of, I think a lot of creators are dyslexic. So if an actor has challenges with sight reading and they want the script to put in a different colour or they want the font bigger etc. they should definitely ask for that and I think most of those places will gladly do that. So I think that's one thing. I think are they nice? Is it another thing? If you're cast in one of these games, we might be working with you for over a year, maybe even two years because we have downloadable content now. So if a game is released, they'll still create more content for it. So you might get more scenes. Are you nice to work with? Do you respect the NDA? I've had a few scenarios, we had an actor who was filming themselves in the booth during the session. Some people take photos in the booth that shows the script that then goes on the social media. That's a minority, but I think, can you respect the NDA? I have had a few people who've gotten into trouble for that. Then on the technical side, I think games often really demand a lot of projection. When I do those sessions, I really try and break up those scripts from, we usually have conversational, projected, and then highly projected. And if there's a lot of highly projected... I try to do those in maybe like 20-minute slots, then give a 10 minute break. Or if we're doing multiple sessions, then we'll just do little bits of that in each session because you can damage your voice. And I think if an actor has been pushed too hard, you should be able to say, look, I don't think I can do any more today. Or is there another way to do this? So I think actors should never damage their voice to try and please a client. Because I know when you get a job, you just want to really deliver to them. But I think you have to be careful with your voice. So I think probably do warm-ups as well. But I think you do need the ability to project when you're especially in the game world, I would say.
M: It's so fascinating to hear you talk through these things because here at BRAVA we train creative professionals, we don't really train sort of real beginners if you like, and they can be experienced in any area of broadcast or singing or whatever. But what's interesting is you're already having those actors who are already booked that don't understand those things. That's what we provide here at BRAVA is to say you may already be a trained actor but if you haven't trained in voice acting, these are the things you need to know. So just to respond to some of the things you said, we talk all the time here about, you need to be a master of the cold read. The days of having the script a week before probably won't happen that often. Sometimes they do. So you need to be ready to go before the first word and you do the training and the learning outside of the jobs. When you get into those jobs, time is money and you have to bring all of that craft to it. So it's fascinating to hear you talk about that.
D: One more challenge that I think actors may have is that on a game where, let's say it's a cinematic scene, you're definitely gonna get a lot of clients on the line. So the typical game session would be that I'll be directing, there'll be an engineer, the actor will be in the booth. Then usually on Zoom now, or Teams, there'll be maybe two or three, sometimes four clients from the studio, and they'll be listening in and they'll be giving feedback, sometimes through me, sometimes directly to the actor. So I think an actor needs to be able to just be open and flexible to try stuff, I think is the other thing, might get contradictory notes. I think when you work in the games world, you just have to be prepared to try stuff out. I'm just putting myself in the actor's shoes. It must be sometimes a bit confusing where you've got a director telling you something, then you've got maybe two different notes from different clients who are on the line. And I think I've had a lot of actors who are very skillful of just going, sure, I'll try it. Just being open and flexible to trying stuff. It's different from a movie where, you know, so I think a bit of flexibility, I think is really good attribute to that as well.
M: And being able to focus, to listen and to be able to interpret that. I mean, I've voiced for Elder Scrolls and Grand Theft Auto V and sometimes you've got eight people on the line, the writers as well, everybody's, sometimes things are changing in front of you and they very much value your input to a point. Obviously you're not going to carry on kind of overriding them, but I love that challenge to me because all of us have done so much training and craft over the years. We are very pliable and we're happy to try anything out. And I think being able to mitigate software issues as well, sometimes the studios can't connect with you, or you need to be able to manage all of those eight people on the live session and somehow make it work. So all of that is fascinating to hear from you, from the director's side of things.
M: So everybody asked this question, I have to ask you, are there any particular trends you're seeing in games right now? I think it's probably a positive trend that we are seeing, and I don't always think it has to be exact. When we have a Northern Irish character, people will look to hire a Northern Irish actor. And I don't think we always have to be rigid within our casting, but obviously there's been in the past people doing awful accents or things, people who are just not quite right for the roles. I do think acting, obviously, you need to have the flexibility to play all sorts of different characters. We needed Indonesian talent for the game. So we went to, we hooked up with an Indonesian studio and we got local actors. I think obviously that gives a much more authenticity to the acting and the accents and et cetera. And then if people are then able to go, but you know what, yeah, absolutely, let's use that phrase, that's gonna be a lot better. So I think that's a trend I'm seeing, is that the casting is gonna be more specific. Other than that, I think that's probably the main trend that I'm seeing. They're becoming more elaborate. I mean, I think when I started, the scriptwriting teams are growing, and often people from movies are coming into the games industry, and obviously you saw with the Last of Us adaptation that games can influence film and TV and vice versa. So I think games are probably where TV used to be, where people used to slightly look down on TV. And then obviously we had HBO and the Sopranos and The Wire, et cetera. And then TV is seen as a superior art form sometimes to movies, as well in terms of character development over multiple seasons. And I think games now as interactive stories with teams of writers and complex plot lines. And obviously The Last of Us is a great example of that and really interesting representation as well. So I think games industry is massive. Most people don't know it's bigger than film and music combined, I think, as an industry. So I'm very proud to work in it. And honestly, I think Working games has managed to keep me in the industry working on my film projects as well. So I'm very grateful to work in game, audiobook, etc. And really they're all just stories, they're just different formats.
M: It's so fascinating to hear your take on all this.
M: You've always been very gracious with your advice in the few times that we've already talked. Can you talk to us a little bit about the realities of working in this field as an actor and voice actor? And what advice can you share about failure or when times are tough and the work isn't coming in?
D: Yeah, I think it's I think when you start off, you do hear actors saying, oh, don't do it or only do it if you really love it. And at the start of your career, you're like, I'm sure they just want to keep all the good stuff to themselves. And that's nonsense, etc. I think. But I think it is genuinely extremely hard. There's no getting around it for anybody. And there were a lot of lows along with the highs. And I think a lot of the best things in my career have come out of failure. The feature project I'm working in now, I got rejected with a short film idea I put into the BFI. And then I asked for feedback and they said, well, we did like the feature synopsis you put in as part of your application. And we've actually got development funds, you wanna put it in for that? And then, so I put it in for that, but that came off a rejection. Same with my first Channel Four directing job came off a rejection. So I think having a healthy attitude towards rejection. I think when I was younger, I attached my self-esteem a lot to, which festivals I was getting into, what laurels I've got. And I think if you can slightly detach yourself from the ups and downs of your career, that's very healthy. I think it's very hard on people's mental health, especially with social media, where you see people having massive success and maybe your peers having massive success before you. So I think that's a challenge. When things go quiet, that's a challenge as well. So I think if you have a really good friendship group, if you have interests outside of the industry, I think that's really healthy. I think trying to, I know sometimes people say in a flippant way, technology's so easy now, just go make your feature film. I don't think that's exactly right, because I think most people don't have the resources to do that. But I think, I see this with my other actor friends, my friend, for example, Muhammad Ali, he's putting on a two-person play. and he's going to put that on as a special reading. And so he's creating his own content. He's working on something. He's putting on a play on for one night at a venue. He's also done stuff at theatre Peckham. There isn't a huge cost barrier to that. So if you're a group of actors, maybe you can come together and maybe make a series of short films that you shoot on. Someone's got a DSLR or someone's got an iPhone. Use your phone. You can create content. Again, everyone needs to pay their bills and work, et cetera. you're not going to be able to do lots, but I think you might have the ability to make one very low budget short film a year, for example, as an actor. And then I think again, if you have any talent in writing, writing your own material for yourself will be a very positive thing to do. And then I don't know, if I get rejected for something, I've still got my feature film project that I'm working on. So I've always got something to be working on. I think trying to find some income outside of your industry that you can depend on is very healthy because I think it could take you five, 10 years to get to where you want to go or even more. And so I think anyone coming into the industry, you have to, I really hope you get big and you get selected out of drama school and suddenly you're on a massive movie or show. And there are some people who've had that experience, but I guess they're the 0.1% and then you feel as if that's attainable by everyone. So I would say that if you can look at your career as five years or 10 years, then you put less pressure on yourself.
M: All of that is just golden advice. When we coach here at BRAVA, it is about going through the realities of all those things that you've mentioned and having a network, creating something for yourself for its own sakes is so important as well. Having a backup plan for income, but actually I think having a community that you really trust and there are lots of different tribes that you can access. Even with voice acting, there's lots of different organisations and some might suit you and some might not. And I think part of that is to get a good group of support around you, a good sort of network around you. We would love, at BRAVA, if you ever are putting on any theatre or anything that's live, please let us know. We've got a little group that we always go up to London and we very much believe in experiencing live theatre together and we have all sorts of tales behind that, but please let us know and we'll happily share that as well.
D: I think maybe also, Melissa, that I think it can I have seen I think everyone's guilty of this but if you're on social media every day and then you're auditioning and waiting for those things and you focus only on your career I think that can then become very intense and almost self-pressurising and so I think probably taking some social media breaks like doing the usual things like exercise taking some time off I think you do see people on social media actors saying, oh gosh, I wish I could get booked. Or sometimes you just need to be kind to yourself. I really think what you're just saying that creating your own content in some way, whether it's writing a script, whether it's creating a new showreel scene that you and a couple of actors put together can just be filmed on the phone. If you're then in control of things. So I think if you're just auditioning and waiting to be discovered, I think if you can do other stuff like go, okay, I'm gonna create a voice reel. I'm gonna try and do audio books. I'm gonna... do some games, I'm going to maybe put on a two person play, I'm going to write a script that I put into a competition. If you can have a few different things going on, rather than just saying, I've got one audition this month, or I've got one audition this quarter, and I'm going to pin everything on there. I think that can be very painful because everyone gets rejected at any level. So I think just look after yourselves and don't lose your love for it. If you're not getting that big results that you want because it's a real rollercoaster, I think, with, like I said, the highs are very high. Because that example, I was suddenly, I was sitting next to Daniel Z. Lewis and the BIFAs. We were about to get Oscar nominated. We didn't get Oscar nominated. We didn't win the BIFAs. And then all of those people and all of that merry-go-round disappeared. And then you're suddenly like Cinderella back from the ball. And then you have to kind of yourself up to go again. And then, like I say, it's been maybe over 10 years since I'm now back with a project that might be in contention. Yeah. So it was interesting. I don't know, it's a really strange business.
M: You learn so much in those moments though. And I know it's easy to sit here when you're a bit older and say that, but honestly, it's that whole Silicon Valley thing of you learn loads in the failures, but you really do practice and learn resilience.
M: One thing I wanted to talk about as well is as, as important as it is to go out and create your own content, I actually think it's also really important to just to consume it, as well to go back to books and music and art. And I say this to my kids all the time, when you're older without books, music and art, what else is there other than laundry? So I think even maybe taking some pressure off yourself, if you don't feel that you're at that at that point where you're able to create, maybe just pick up a new book or go and see a new film or go and see a new show and remember what it's like to be a consumer of those things as well. So brilliant of you to go through those things and thank you.
M: We have got to wrap it up everything you talk about really fascinating. And I know that our network are gonna be really interested in what you have to say. But finally, what advice would you have for a voice actor today who would love to work on the kind of projects and titles you've been involved in? What training should they do? How can they future-proof themselves?
D: Yeah, I mean, I think you need a well-recorded voice reel. And again, that's not always easy, but I'm not saying you have to go into a studio, which is costly. If you have a friend, I mean, I know a lot of actors have their own mics now, but if you have a friend who has a decent mic in a quiet bedroom or something like that, so I think if you can get something that sounds well recorded, I think a well recorded reel would be good. I would go on voice agents websites and look at what the reels that their clients who are working are using. And then I would try and mirror those reels in terms of running time types of content. And then I would. Obviously, look on Spotlight, I think a lot of the jobs come through there. I would go on LinkedIn and I would try and make friends with all the people at the big studios in London who record a lot of games. So the way it works is a big studio like Ubisoft will hire a London studio, like a Liquid Violet, a Molinare, OM Media, Side, one of those big ones. And they will hire them to do the game and often to do, to provide casting for them. Pit Stop is another one. So you want to go to one of those four or five big studios and make friends on LinkedIn with those people, follow them on Instagram. And then I think when you approach them, you want to send them a very short email referring to projects that they've done that you like. So make it personal and then send them your showreel and then probably follow up maybe a month later with some kind of good news. Like I just did this play went really well. I saw you've done the new Baldur's Gate, like you're saying. I just wanted to send you again my show, or would you have time for a phone chat, or can I pop into the studio and say hi? So I would do those kind of things. If I get an email from an actor who said, I like your film and I like this, and could you give me some advice? I would usually reply. But if I get a generic one that I know has just been BCC to loads of people, I wouldn't reply to them because they haven't bothered to do a bit of research, do you know what I mean? So those blind kind of emails do not work at all. And then... I would chase people very lightly. I'm talking like wait two months and then come back with news, not just, can I have a job? So I would do that. And then once you get your first one, really check with them when you can put something online about it. So make sure you are staying true to your NDA and then they'll trust you. And then obviously share everything on your social media, LinkedIn. It sounds weird, but I got my audible job through LinkedIn, chatting to someone on LinkedIn. And then I was suddenly in the booth directing in Ncuti Gatwa and Helen of Bonham Carter alongside Mariele Runacre-Temple. It's very random, do you know what I mean? So I think you have to be patient. I think those are things I would do. I would just really work on your projections. So when you get one of those jobs, you can cope with the projection, you go warmed up. And then when you do get a job, advocate for yourself. If you need hot lemon and honey, if you need a break, if you need them to not have so much highly projected in one go, push back a little bit in a polite way. Yeah, I think those are the things to do. And then often it's down to luck and timing really and a bit of patience. Yeah.
M: Daniel, it's time to wrap up our conversation. Thank you so much for giving us your time. It's always fascinating to chat to you. And maybe we'll do it again sometime. But for today, thank you.
D: Oh, no, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
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