Voice Direction for Video Games: A Conversation with Adele Cutting.

Listen to the episode here...

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Welcome to High Notes, a podcast on the art and business of voice. My name is Melissa and I've worked commercially with my voice for over 27 years. In this podcast, I'll be talking to those who consistently hit the high notes in our industry and will be exploring the craft and creativity behind the business. Whether you're a seasoned voice professional or simply curious about the magic that happens in front or behind the microphone, this podcast is your backstage pass to learning just some of the secrets of the trade. Make sure you never miss an episode by subscribing to High Notes on your favourite podcast app. And be sure to check out the show notes at brava.uk.com/podcast for more information about this episode and more.

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00:53
M: In this Women in Games special, we meet Adele Cutting. Adele's career as an audio director and sound designer for video games is extensive. She's shaped the soundscapes of blockbuster titles and indie gems alike, including The Quarry, As Dusk Falls, Assassin's Creed Odyssey, Immortals Fenyx Rising, The Room VR, Pinky Malinky, Elements, and Far Cry: Rise of the Revolution. She also runs masterclasses for BRAVA.

Adele sits on juries for BAFTA, MAS and the Game Audio Network Guild and regularly talks at universities and game industry events. She's a member of the Game Developers Conference Advisory Board and a co-opted member of the BAFTA Games Committee. It was a real pleasure to sit down and chat to her. Let's listen to what Adele had to say. 

High Notes: A podcast on the art and business of voice.

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01:49
M: Adele Cutting, thank you so much for joining us today. I can't wait to talk more to you about your incredible career. I'm really happy that you're here to chat to us. 

A: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. 

M: Oh, always welcome. So let's start at the beginning. Can you talk to us a little bit about what led you to become a BAFTA award-winning audio director and sound designer?

 

A: Well, I think it was the film Singing in the Rain that really got me into it. When I was a kid, I was really into musical theatre and dancing and drama and playing in orchestras and bands and things. And so I loved that film, but I was sort of fascinated at how they actually recorded sound. And it led me to sort of like thinking about how sound is recorded now. So that's what really got me into that. And then I did loads of work experience like at BBC Radio York, for example. I was put actually with a presenter. I was meant to be shadowing a presenter and she was far too busy for me. So she palmed me off on the sound department and actually I found that really fascinating. And that's all like when I realized I just loved the sound aspect of it. 

A: So yeah, so I went to university, did sort of like, I mean, there's loads of courses now where you can specialise in sound design and recording and acoustics and things like that. But I did a music course at City University.

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03:13
A: And I chose that course because it was taught by engineers from the BBC, but it did sound recording, acoustics and all the things, electro-acoustic music, all the things that I was really interested in. Plus words, performance theatre, which was sort of like all about sort of like theatre productions and opera and things like that. So it sort of ticked my boxes. So I did that. And then after graduating, I discovered a course at the National Film and Television School, which was perfect for me.

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03:42
A: So I did a placement in film and then the EA contacted the film school and said, would somebody like to come and do the cutscenes, which are just, cutscenes are very different now, but then it was like you'd have the gameplay, then a video would play and that would be a cutscene. And my passion was animation because there was no sound to start with at all. You had to record absolutely everything and build it up, so I loved it and they recommended me, but I had left because I'd done this placement. And luckily that placement had offered me a job. It was all very, they were so lovely actually because I hadn't finished my course. And I said, but I've been offered a job. And they're like, well, the whole point of the course is that you get work. So you can, as long as you can finish the course, you can take the job. So I'd left. However, I was really fortunate that the head of audio remembered me, recommended me. So I went to have a look.

A: And I was amazed at, I didn't really, it was very different then. Girls didn't really play games like they do now. It was very much a boy's thing. So I played Donkey Kong and Lemmings and a few other things, but I wasn't like a gamer. So I really didn't know what to expect. And I turned up and the studio was amazing. Like what I was given to work with. And they said, your first job, you can buy in loads of sound libraries. I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, that's like a kid in a sweet shop, right?

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05:09
A: So I went there, did six months, but it was just on the linear stuff. And then I left and went back to film because I was freelance. And then they contacted me and said, we've got a full-time job. Do you want to come? So I was like, yeah, sure. It was great. And I thought I'll stay for a bit and then I'll go back to film. But then it was very different back in the late nineties. There wasn't all the middleware that there is now. There isn't WY's and F-MOD.

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05:37
A: Everything was evolving. We were like on the cutting edge of technology. Things were being made as we requested them to be made. And so, yeah, I never went back. I sort of stayed. 

M: What an incredible springboard into that career. It sounds like almost the perfect, perfect introduction to it.

05:58

M: You led us all the way up to EA. Were there any other pivotal moments in your career and was EA a really big one of those? 

A: I mean, joining EA obviously was massive. That was just like a crazy experience. It was very different to today because now there's, although we always want more women in the industry, when I joined, there was hardly any, I think. There was one other female artist, but any other females were sort of like in admin roles.
So I was, yeah, there was two of us. 

M: Let's just touch on that. I know it's very early on in the chat, but it's important. I was speaking recently to my agent on the podcast, Natalie Edwards from Excellent. And this is also a Women in Games special. And I was asking her about what trends she's seen. And she said most of the lead roles in gaming right now in her experience are going to men. So it sounds like there's still a lot of work to do. What are you seeing in the industry right now?

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06:56
A: Well, definitely in terms of sort of like, you know, the, the workforce, there's a lot more games. I mean, like the first GDC I went to, I mean, I knew I worked in a male-dominated industry, but I went to GDC and it was really like, wow, there's like no women here. It was, it was really kind of shocking. Yes. Whereas at least now there are lots of women who are there. I mean, we're not 50-50, but it's... 

M: There are, but I mean... We met at GDC last year, didn't we? And I was there as part of the government trade mission. And I mean, it's just an incredible experience. I mean, I was the only mixed-race woman in the arena in which I was in GDC. And it was a strange experience. You know, you definitely did feel like there weren't a lot of females around.

M: So I'm interested, you know, we hear a lot about there's work being done, there's work being done, but then when I talk to people who are casting, they're saying, look, the lead roles are going to predominantly to men. And I'm wondering, is that because predominantly men are writing the games? 

A: I think, yes, there's still a lot of male leads, but I've seen a massive change that I'm casting female leads now. I mean, definitely now compared to, you know, back in the 90s, absolutely not. But I mean, you look at... games like Assassin's Creed Odyssey and you could play as Cassandra or Alexios. So you could play as either leads to the next Assassin's game. It was a female lead. Like there wasn't an option for a male. It was a female lead. So I do think it's changing. Absolutely. I think people are very aware of that. I think as well on the indie games, so like I said, there's loads of female, female characters, or at least there's always the option of male, you could play as male or female. 

A: So, I think if you're maybe new to the industry, you think it's so male dominated, but as somebody who's been in it since the nineties, it's changed. I went to GDC a few weeks ago and there was, yeah, it's not 50-50 split, but I can see women. Like every hall I go to, there's women. Yeah. When I first started, it was like...

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09:05
M: You didn't even see another woman. Oh my God. I mean, we're laughing. It's not funny. I get that, but it's good to hear that things are changing and thank goodness for people like you who... 

A: Yeah. So no, it's not, it's not 50-50. We've got a long way to go, but at least we're moving there. If you look at where we've come in the last 20 years, I think it's massive. But I think the problem for me is, it's too late. By the time you get to the workforce, if you haven't already pulled women in, you're not going to... You know, it's a struggle. And for me, it's at the primary school stage or the secondary school stage where people have to be encouraged to do it and need to see females in the roles. I mean, I used to go in with my kids when my kids were at primary school. I used to go in when they were in year six and do a presentation. They used to have a careers day and all the parents were invited in. I used to go in and sort of like tell them all about Harry Potter, because obviously that's a big, you know, 11-year-olds, totally on brand side. Wworking on the Harry Potter games and I'd get them to break carrots and so like, you know, rip up cabbages and so like say, what could you use this sound for? What this, you know, I know it's we're ripping up a cabbage, but what else could that be used for if I break a carrot? What could I use that for? 

M: I just sometimes think that opportunities across the board at schools are so kind of set in boxes and even just presenting them with a cabbage and saying, what else could you use this sound for? They've probably never even thought about it. Yeah. And it's fascinating. So I'm really glad that you brought that up. And grabbing children, you know, at that age, I think is really key to show them that these jobs are possibilities, whether they will be in 20, 30 years’ time, who knows with technology, but right now, I think it's important.

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M: So you mentioned Harry Potter as one of the titles. You've worked on so many large titles. Can you share some of those with us and kind of some of your experiences? Have you had any particular challenges or extreme highs with those? 

A: I think every single game is different. So even the Harry Potter franchise, I mean, I was on there for 10 years. It's never the same because the technology changes with every iteration. So there's always something new you've got to learn. There's always a new problem that you've got to solve. I mean, if you don't like problem solving then this isn't the industry for you because it's not just creative, there's a technical aspect as well. So yeah, every single game is a challenge and has different obstacles we have to overcome. But that's not why I stay in it really, because it keeps me thinking. I think I'd get a bit bored if it was just the same thing over and over again. So obviously I love the Harry Potter games.

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11:54
A: I do love the stories anyway, and I just love designing sound effects. So on the Harry Potter games I wore two hats. I wasn't the audio director in the early ones, I was the lead sound designer. And then during the course of the production I moved up to be the senior audio director. But I wore two hats, I did the sound and then eventually the audio direction part of it, but I also did the voice direction part of it. And for me, that was a pivotal moment for me, because I'd been doing voice directing for quite a few years and then Harry Potter came along and obviously famous actors were involved, you know. So the powers that be wondered whether I was right to direct famous people, because surely you need somebody more famous to direct famous people. And so they brought in a director from the States to train us, but also to direct it. And he came in and he worked with, well, I was directing but he was there sort of like giving feedback. And he did the best sort of like best boost to my career, I think ever in the fact that he turned around and said, she can do it. You don't need me. Which was massive. In fact, I met him at GDC. Oh yeah. It was so great. Yeah. Meeting him again, because he teaches at UCLA now he sort of like runs the games course there, so it was lovely seeing him again and thanking him again.

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13:18
M: Aww, and what a lovely thing to do because maybe a lot of people wouldn't do that. Absolutely, yeah, no, it was lovely.

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13:28
M: You've touched there on something that I think is important for listeners to this podcast. Let's dig into the definitions a bit. Can you just explain the difference between an audio director and a voice director for those that don't know? 

A: So an audio director is responsible for all the sound that goes in the game, be it dialogue, music or sound effects. It's different from a sound supervisor in film because they're mainly looking after sort of like a dialogue and sound effects. And the composer, his stuff comes in later in games.

A: The audio director is responsible for the whole style of the game. So for example, on The Quarry, for instance, which I just worked on, you look at sort of like the target audience, who are the people who are going to be playing this game? You look at the game direction, talk with the creative director, and you, you design the style for the game. What's important? How are you going to implement the sounds? What music is right for this? So you, you do a lot of sort of like a creating of style guides, getting the whole vision for the audio. That is what an audio director does. The voice director is very different. The voice director is responsible for obviously all the direction of the performers. You'll find people who are sort of like more old school, I suppose like me, have had the opportunity to sort of like branch in both directions because years ago when voice first came in, I don't think people really knew where it sat, oh, it's voice, it makes the sound, it's the audio department. And I remember at EA, the very first voice session we did, I said, who's gonna direct it? And they went, what do you mean? I said, well, they can't just come in and read a script. How do they know what the relevance is, where it's gonna be used in the game, who's gonna check it's right for the game? So they said, oh, well, you've volunteered yourself. Because I've done drama and stuff, it's all like made sense. So I went in and directed it and that's how it sort of started.

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15:25
A: So I think if you come from an old school background, an audio director might also direct the voice, whereas now they're very separate disciplines. You know, the voice director might just be a voice director. That's all they do. There won't be an audio director as well. It's also helped me because I've seen the whole pipeline from casting right through to localisation. I sort of like know where things can go wrong. So when I'm directing, not only am I looking for sort of like believability, continuity of character, being the conduit for the game information, making sure it's the right words per minute, doing takes, selecting cut and shuts. I'm also thinking that's not gonna work in the editing process, we're gonna have to redo that, or there's not enough breaths, because I know from experience how many you need to sort of like cobble stuff together, or if you've got a stunt mocap shoot. I'm like, right, I know there's all these scenes which will have no audio, so I need to make sure we've got that material in the session. 

A: So I think it informs me as a voice director because I've seen the back end process. They're different, you know, they're different jobs now. 

M: I mean, you bring so much to it with that. The thing that you've got clearly is an overview of the entire process from beginning to end of producing a game. And you're definitely gonna provide your money's worth as the voice director, that's for sure. 

A: I probably do too much to be honest, because there's lots of things I do. Like obviously I protect the dialogue editors. So I try to make sure that we're getting stuff that they're not gonna pull their hair out and go, what is this? And also, you know, sort of like protecting the actor's voice. You know, I've worked with actors who you could hear their voice going and you say, you all right? And they go, yeah, I'm fine. And it might be, yeah, I'm fine because they're want to appear professional, so wants to stay in the booth, or maybe they just don't hear it but I can hear it and you know I'll say do you want to break and they go no, so I'll be a bit cheeky and go oh actually I just need the loo and I just have five minutes so that they have five minutes. I am caring, obviously I don't want them to hurt their voice but also from a non-caring practical point of view.

17:48
A: What's the point in carrying on if we're going to have to re-record everything because it doesn't sound right. So they might have another session and their voice is going to be not in good shape for it. But also there's the practicality. There's no point if we're just going to have to re-record it. 

M: And I think that's something that's very important. Obviously here we run characters training and we talk to people like yourselves and our head of characters lives and works in San Francisco. And we always explain to voice actors that they have to understand what the client's needs are. And it's actually up to us to dig into our craft and be able to say and have the agency and say, I need a five-minute break now, please, because ultimately it's going to go tits up otherwise, rather than waiting for someone to do it for us. Because I've certainly had experiences, plenty of experiences with game sessions where time is money and you've got a crack on and they've got things to do. And as the trained voice actor, we need to take control of ourselves. So it's really interesting to talk through that.

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18:49
High Notes, a podcast on the art and business of voice. This podcast is brought to you by Braava, Bristol Academy of Voice Acting. We provide personalised online training in the art and business of VO. So if you're just starting out, or if you want to elevate your voice skillset, we have the training that will be right for you. Our personalised one-to-one sessions are taught by experienced, supportive master coaches who'll help you to find your signature style and build the confidence to captivate any audience. To find out more, visit brava.uk.com and keep up to date with all our news by subscribing to our newsletter at brava.uk.com/subscribe.

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19:37
M: Let's talk a little bit about the casting process for video games because I know our network will be really interested to hear your views on that. Can you talk us through what that's like for voice actors and what you're looking for when you're casting? 

A: Oh, well, right at the start, if I start right at the very beginning. So I think what I've been working with my clients is making sure that we get really good casting briefs together. So I think the more information that the actor has, the better the casting sample is that comes back. If you're just gonna give them a handful of lines and say, female, 40s, what does that say? So I do try and work as much as possible to get things like even just concept art, if there's no model, just so that the actor can see the physicality, because that plays a big part in sort of like when you're creating a character, so like a little bit of backstory and then some casting lines for them to read. I think with most of my clients, especially indies, they can't afford casting sessions where people come into the room and even with my larger clients, we'll always start with a casting sample. So my job is to find the people straight away. So we've got our own database that we use, which is people can submit to our database. It's always open because I just want new talent, really. I don't see the point in sort of like closing it, just like put your stuff in. Then we can find you easier, especially good for people who are representing themselves and they don't have an agent. So people put their stuff in there. Obviously the backend, you know, well, so like when I've worked with people, then we've got Spotlight. So we're on Spotlight as well. We cast through there. 

A: We've obviously got lots of links with lots of agents. So we'll go directly with them. So that's how I find people. Sometimes it's easier. A casting we were doing is just come in. Well, it came in on Friday and I was like, I know three people who I know will just boss that. But then at the same time, I don't want to rely on just the people I've got because there's so many people out there. 

M: I know that you will have been inundated after our talk the other day with new submissions to your casting database because as soon as you mentioned that, I was thinking she's gonna get maybe about 100, if not more, because I can see everyone go brilliant. But it is so nice that you're so welcoming with that. A lot of agents will close their books and I get the reasons for that. But the fact that you're very open to say to people you can submit is a great thing. 

A: Yeah, well, we're not an agency and my job, I see it as being finding the right person for the role. It's not about choosing favourites. It's about, you know, there might be somebody who I've never heard before who absolutely storms it. So, yeah, you know, we do keep that nice and open. We also listen, obviously, a lot of it is, “If I've never worked with you before, obviously your showreel is really important. What you need to have in your showreel”. You know, the fact that old school showreels have sort of like 15, 20 characters in two minutes, but you're just saying a sentence and to me that it might say what you can do in terms of accent. But one sentence in Scottish does not say to me that you can create a believable character that's in Scottish. So I prefer reels that have slightly longer sections. You know, I'm not talking like ages because it's still in two minutes but you know a little bit more that actually there's some character development there's some character arcs I can hear the acting chops because we're not casting just a voice we're not doing tv ads or corporate or commercial voiceovers it's voice acting it's not voiceover, so obviously if you've got a reel just make sure that you're a variety of different voices. 

A: So I send the casting samples out, we get them back. I will then go through and sort of like separate into what I think the top ones are and the rest. I always send everything actually because casting is a team sport. It's not just me. It's like people say, because you're the person who's sending out the castings, they assume that it's you. You're making the decision and that's very, very rare. I've got to have been working with a client for, you know, a long time and they absolutely trust me if I ever get my own pick, but I'll always put forward my top, but then there'll be a team of people. So it would be like the creative director, exec producer, senior dev director, art director, and the further you go down, if that's just for voice, everybody wants to say, you know, because I think one thing about games, which I love is it's such a collaborative process. Everybody likes to look at, get their fingers in everybody else's pies and give feedback.

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24:26
A: So it's normally a big team. And then obviously if you go to performance capture, then animators want to be involved. Everybody wants to be involved. So, yeah, so it's a big team and then there'll be discussions around the team as to who they want to have. Obviously if you're working on a AAA, then you might have the luxury of having casting callbacks. So there'll be the top three to five people, then you'll get them in a studio set up. I mean, Indies can't do that because obviously they're on way tight of budgets, and you've got to pay for a studio and an engineer and everything if you're doing that. But you'll get the top five back and that allows me to work with them and see how they take direction. They'll also have more materials so it'll be able to show us what the actors can bring to the table, what their thoughts of the character are. So we'll go a little bit deeper into it, just dependent on the budget. 

M: That's a really interesting point that you make because when we're training and advising and coaching and talking to voice actors we will always say, you know, even if you get a callback, that's an incredible experience because you're getting in front of people. You may not be the one to book that job, but you are one of three and you will be in front of that casting director who may remember you for another job that comes up in the future. And I think that's something to remember is this whole voice acting game is about the long game. You know, sometimes we kind of look on social media and think everyone else is booking and it's really important to remember that any kind of interaction you can have is important, where you could be memorable and stand out, even if you don't necessarily make the final cut. Does that happen with you? 

A: Yeah, I mean, like I work, Soundcuts is a remote team, so everything we've got to do has got to be top draw, because if it's not, then we won't be used again. That's just the way it is. And also, even though I've been doing it for 27 years and have awards and all that, I'm still asked to audition.

26:18
A: You know, they still say, Oh, can you try this and see? Yeah. You know, and it's like, I know I can do it, but they want to, they want to see. But I have to say as an actor, I think I would find it quite stressful because actors are great at self-promotion. I think it's important for actors to, to get out there, get noticed, get followers. Cause unfortunately there are castings I've been asked to do where, cause obviously it's marketing as well. They want people who, especially on big games, they want people who are... they want famous talent, which is a whole different casting process, or they want people who have X amount of followers. So I have been asked to cast people with over 80,000 followers before. 

M: Interesting. Does that happen a lot? 

A: It's happening more and more. Yeah. I think it's because they like... Obviously, actors are so good at self-promotion.

 
M: Well, some of them are, some of them aren't. Some of them have a team behind them. I think that's a really interesting point because everybody struggles, I think, in some way. Do you go for numbers on social media or do you go for authenticity? And sometimes those two things are mutually exclusive. And that takes a lot of time and energy. I mean, again, that's something we advise on here. When we're talking about social, sometimes we say to people, look, if it's your thing, go for it. And if it isn't, work out another way. But I think it's very interesting to hear that from you. And, and it's just the reality of the industry today.

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27:47
A: Marketing teams, you know, they're really important in the chain. You know, they do have a strong voice that is heard because ultimately it's a business. Do you know what I mean? So if the marketing team want somebody who can send a tweet out and instantly hit 80,000 people, they're going to want to do it. I mean, it's not all the cases. I don't want everybody to suddenly panic and just like follow everybody in the world, just so that they'll follow them back. I certainly don't want that.

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28:13
A: But there have been cases where that's been the case for key characters, for sure. Yeah. 

M: Yeah. It's good to hear the realities of it. 

M: Let's talk about the T-word, because everybody always wants to ask this question. What trends have you noticed in the industry? What's changed over the last 20 years? What are we moving more towards in gaming at the moment? 

A: Oh, that's a really difficult question because gaming is a massive, massive world. There's so many different types of gaming and you can probably split it into double, triple A's, quad A's as some people call themselves, and then you've got the indies as well. I think for me with the, well there's two things. So I'd say a lot of the characters that are being written now, years ago in sort of like the 90s, everything was a heightened performance, everything was OTT, and now everybody's going for really natural, believable performances. It's good to see it coming back into gaming as well. There could be heavy performances with heavy subjects, but it's realism. It's got to feel real. I liken it to years ago, voice acting for games would have been like stage acting where everything is much larger and you talk to the person in the back. Whereas now I say it's much like film where imagine a camera is a close up on your face. And so the acting doesn't have to be so big because it's, the camera could be super close.

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29:39
A: I think definitely natural performances, that's something that's really being pushed. I mean, on one indie game I worked on recently, I think we almost took it to an extreme. My client was like, no, less, less, less. And I'm like, they're in a burning building. It'd be a little bit stressed. But no, everything's really, really sort of like very natural now. So I think that's one trend overall. I think when it comes to indies, indies historically could not afford voice. And since Covid, loads of actors have home studio they can use voice because they don't have to hire a studio as well as an actor. So I think there's a lot more indie games. We've done one recently and oh my god, the script was phenomenal and there were so many lines. I was like, I can't actually and it was just for the demo. And then like, yeah, you know, when we do the full game, there's going to be more. And it was just like there was a crazy amount of lines. It was and it was brilliant to see.

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30:35
A: In AAA, obviously more and more people are going for sort of like full performance capture. So that's been pushed. There's still lots of hundreds and thousands of NPC characters, which is non-playing characters, which are the sort of like the quest givers or the people in the world who are just chatting at the side to help build that up. Obviously there's the elephant in the room, which is AI. 

M: Well, that was going to be my next question. NPCs. I mean, I do quite a lot of those for various games, Elder Scrolls, things like that. And I wanted to ask you what you think about those being taken over in the future by the advances of new technologies. 

A: What do I think? Well, I don't really want it to happen because obviously it's my bread and butter directing these things. But Games is a tech company. The games industry is tech. And they always want to try new things.

A: So, and I could get this completely wrong. I'll watch this video in 10 years and I'll be like, you were totally wrong Cutting. I hate doing the future. I think lots of people will adopt. First of all, I think they'll overuse it and then they'll realise it doesn't sound as good. So I think they'll use it, but I think they'll use it in small parts where it's not important to the storyline. Yeah. 

M: And could they use it for dev purposes, but then bring in the actors at the end. 

A: To be honest, we've been using it for dev purposes for years. We've always used, I mean, like, obviously the voices are really, you can get much higher quality voices. They still don't sound real to my ears, but you can use really good quality voices now. But we've done, used Revo Voice for years because we use it to actually time out sequences, see how long the game's going to run, because until you put all the lines in, you've no idea how long a scene is going to take. And you have to, long before an actor's recorded a lot of the game is blocked out, you know it looks very Minecrafty and you've got characters just walking around and stuff like this but you need to know the story because unlike film where the script is first and everything is taken off the script you'll have the overarching story but the script is written sort of like almost in collaboration with the game which is why there's so many pickups and retakes because you’ll record a script, and then it'll be put in the game. And then it'll be like, oh, that doesn't quite work. And actually the play doesn't really have the information that they need. So we need to rewrite this line. So, or whole chunks, I've had this before, whole chapters of the game are taken out because it's like, oh my God, we're never gonna finish this game in time. So, right, let's take out this chapter. So you have to change the dialogue at the end of one chapter and the next one, because the one in the middle is gone. So you've got to sort of like make sure the story's still there. So there's lots of changes. It's very fluid and things are changing all the time. If you're somebody who likes organisation and likes a very disciplined plan, then games is not for you, because it changes all the time. So yeah, so it's been used for years. And I do think lots of people will jump on the back where I can get excited. It's like I liken it to Surround Sound. So if you listen to the first films with Surround Sound, there is so much in the rears, it's distracting. And then, because they were like, so excited, I'm going to put everything in the rears. And now people know you use it either for a big effect, but apart from that, it's just sort of like you're keeping the feel.

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34:13
M: Let's move on to talking about some of your experiences working with voice actors. Can you give us any sort of real-life examples of what really works well for you? And also, have there been any moments where you've thought, oh my goodness, this is the wrong person for the job? I like to hear both sides. 

A: I haven't had an experience with it. We didn't cast them because obviously we do the whole pipeline here, but quite often I'm just hired as the director. So I'll go in and just direct. And I was directing one project and this guy came in to read it and he was basically reading for a character who was like, almost like your aide, they were showing you how to do things, how to work things and they were like always in your ears or like explaining how things should be done. And the actor arrived and had a beaut- I could see why they'd chosen him because his voice was lush. I mean, it was lush, but he wasn't an actor, he was a voiceover. And so everything was read like an e-learning script. And so I had to spend a lot of time going, no, let's forget, forget everything you know. You're literally, you're teaching this person how to do this. How would you do it? Just say, how would you do it if this was your son or your daughter? And you know, how would you do it? And so for me, it was luckily they did have a son or daughter. So that was a massive, because otherwise I'd be like, explaining to your friend. But it had to be sort of like a person of authority and experience talking to somebody you didn't know. But we really worked on it. I mean, it took a lot longer than it should have done because we were really having to go through things. And at the end of the session, they were like, wow, that was amazing. I've never done acting before. And I mean, I think it was good. I think what we got was great but nobody sees the work behind the scenes. They just hear the final script, but that was sort of like a, it was a success, but it was hard work. And it was because a voiceover, not an actor, had been used. 

M: We talk about those distinctions all the time. My background, I came from broadcasting. And so I have been through that very transition. In America, quite often they say, if you're a radio host, you can't be a voice actor. I don't agree with that because it's just a choice and you have to understand how to switch things on and off. But that's where if you're already doing voiceover, you have to understand that voice acting is a different thing and you have to learn and train in it, I think. And so it's really interesting to hear that feedback.

 
A: And then the other time, I worked with a lot of stage actors and who were amazing, oh my God, like this this person, I'm not going to name names, massive actor. I'd never ask you to do that, Adele, never. Super, super, like, everybody will know who this actor is. He's epic, massive movie star, massive actor, stage actor. 

M: Brad Pitt, Brad Pitt. 

A: No, but I wish. He came in and he was doing his voice. Because one of the things I do when I'm directing is I close my eyes so that I'm just hearing the voice because, and it was just really falling flat. So I looked at him and his facial expression was amazing. And if that was being captured, it wasn't, it was just his voice. That would have been, that would have sold it. That would have sold it. However, it wasn't, he was just a voice. And so I was having to explain, now everything you're doing on your face is brilliant, but I need that emotion to come out of your voice because you're gonna be about this small on the screen and nobody's gonna see the face, you know, teeny weeny. So that was quite hard to get through. 

A: I find that other people who've come from stage, they might be marvellous actors, but some of them don't have very good mic technique. So it's changing the way we record to make sure that they have the flexibility to move. So it's maybe using a DPA headset rather than, I mean, we'll always still have the static mic, but it's just sort of making sure there's that flexibility for somebody who likes to, I mean, some people move their feet and I'm like, no, stop it. We can hear it. 

M: But what you're picking up on is stuff we talk about day in day out in our training, which is you can come from any sort of aspect of that. You can come from stage acting, drama school, you can come from voiceover, but voice acting is a specific skill set. And I think a lot of this, some kind of, sometimes a strange approach where it's like, I can just become a voice actor because I've got a good voice. And actually there is so much more to learn than people think. One session with us, every single time we have one session with a new talent and they will email us and say, oh my God, that was so much in one session and there's so much more than I thought. And we're like, yes, that's what we're trying to tell you. 

A: I've lost count the amount of conferences because we go to the develop conference and we normally have a booth. And Susie Hughes, one of the casting directors here, she'll be there. And the amount of people who come up and say, oh yeah, “I want to be a voice director [actor], look I can do lots of voices” and proceed to do Donald Duck, maybe Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, some other impressions from other people. I'm like, voices is not acting. That's great. If you've got loads of voices, awesome, because they can be useful too. Don't get me wrong. You can incorporate those, but you have to know, you have to understand how, and then you need to bring the acting in on top of that. It's the acting that's most important. But I do think it's important for actors to sort of like find their range so that when they go into the studio, because as I say, you know, if you're an NPC, I've been in studio sessions where, again, if I've just been hired as a voice director and the actors come in and I'm going, right, we're doing five characters today, and they're like, well, I'm like, yeah, you've got to get five different characters out of you. So it's always good to have that in your arsenal. You've already got some that you can just draw upon really quickly. 

M: But that's what training's for. When we run characters, that's exactly what we say. We say,

you do the stretching, the training, the learning outside of the real gigs. And then when you are booked onto those gigs, you have got to bring that to the session. You can't learn in the session. Yeah. So that's something that's very, very important. 

A: But you'd be surprised. I've been in lots of sessions where actors can't do that. Well, I know that's shocked you, but it is a fact. 

M: No, I know it's a fact. But that's why then if you have, I mean, when I started out doing all this, there wasn't training, it wasn't accessible. And it wasn't until I moved, really moved to California. Obviously I'd been a voiceover for many, many years before that, across radio, corporate and commercial. But then when I moved to California, I thought, well, this is great. I'm going to, it's the home of voice acting in characters. And I had the best time. I was so lucky, but it really opened up a whole new world for me. And then coming back to the UK and bringing those things together is you don't have to train, but, but if you do, you are future-proofing yourself right? And you are showing that you have value as a fully trained voice actor. So we believe very strongly in that. 

A: Another thing that I think is very good for a voice actor to learn is what's good for their voice. So I'm always amazed, like, because I saw a training session with a coach from the Royal Shakespeare Company and she was saying, don't drink hot or cold water, just drink room temperature water. Obviously from a sound editing point of view, please don't drink coffee, please don't drink Coke. But it's amazing how many times we'll get to a studio, some of you'll come and say to the actor, do you want a drink? They'll say, oh yeah, I love a coffee. I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, all the time. It's not- We always say, have the coffee after the session. Treat yourself when you finish. Coffee can affect you in so many different ways. So many ways. No, but they do, seriously. 

M: Well, this comes back to my point about, you get the training, you show your worth, you show your value, half the jobs that I have done, you turn up and you are rinsed. And if I didn't have the background I'd have, I do question sometimes whether people would be able to handle it. I personally love the challenges. I love being thrown in at the deep end, but that's what the training can give you. It can take you through those stories. It can give you real world examples. All of our coaches are experts in their fields and they work in those industries day in, day out. And I think that's something that's really important talking to you. 

A: I think like being able to last as well in sessions because some sessions can be four hours so I think if you've had training and you know vocal health and you know how to manage it. 

M: Yeah but it's also all the soft things like sometimes we have stage actors who are fantastic on stage but they'll arrive at a booking and be very stage actory and loud in the corridors and we have to go, my gosh, you know, we're in a working studio. There are five other recordings happening. We gotta keep it, we gotta be quiet. Yeah, and that's not about saying that they shouldn't be themselves. It's just about understanding where they are and being appropriate. 

A: If we're gonna talk about bug bears, my biggest bug bear is somebody being late. Oh yeah, never. That really cheeses me off. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not like some hard ass. If you've if something has happened with the transport network, absolutely, I'm not going to... But it's when people turn up and they don't apologise for being late, that really... They arrive or they book themselves really tight. So they've got a job, 11 till 12, 12 till 1, 1 till 2. So say I'm in the middle and they arrive late, sorry, I've just come off a job and you're like, OK, OK, I'm not happy. M: It already has an impact, doesn't it, on that relationship? 

A: You know, when we do these sessions, we saw like we're told, well, I mean, like if it's up to me, I will sort of like book sort of like maybe for 500-word script words per minute to be recorded per hour. But there are some of my clients that are like, no, we want 700 script words per minute recorded in an hour. So you've got that plus I don't like to, I don't like to start a session. Like somebody comes in and we start. I like to have a little natter because as a director, it's all the little things. I mean, it's not like I'm quizzing you, but A it starts a rapport. Because yeah, well, also the actor and the director, they've got to have a relationship where they trust each other, you know, so that they can work together and get the best performance. But also, it's those little things that can inform me on how I can help the actor. So for example, I was working with one chap when I was talking, he was very anti-Daily Mail, you know, he was disgusted with it, you know, and so we were doing this scene and he had to be absolutely disgusted. He was doing his disgust. And I'm like, nah. I don't believe that. I said, imagine you've just seen the Daily Mail and he was like, oh my God, he was so disgusted with the Daily Mail. But it's finding out little titbits like that, which so I don't, if you're late, it leaves less chance for that. And we're also already behind and it's a rush. So I really think if possible arrive on time. And then I also think don't ask to leave early because I had this one session where this guy arrived late and then said, oh, I've got to get somewhere else?" It's like, no. 

M: No, you're kidding. 

A: You're 10 minutes late to this. So you're going to stay right till the bitter end. 

M: And beyond by 10 minutes. 

A: You could be 10 minutes late for the next one. 

M: It's so fascinating to hear these stories because what it does show is not everybody that ends up booking the gigs is the perfect trained voice actor. And that's something to remember, I think, that we can all have a chance. But the more that we can offer, the more that we can show our value, the more that we understand your needs, the better chance we have of being called back, right? And that's the best thing in this game, as you well know. 

M: Now, listen, we've got to wrap up soon, even though I could talk to you for the next three hours because I love all these chats. But before we finish for today, can you give us some advice on how voice actors can potentially future proof themselves? What training would you recommend? What do you think they should focus on moving into the future? 

A: Well, as I said, games, there's always loads of voice work in games. So I would say work on your acting chops. That's the key thing I'd say. All the training we've discussed during this, I think if you... But then I did discuss AAA is going more for performance capture. So if that's something you want to explore as well, I'd say that's a really good place to start doing mocap training or at least understanding it. So it's, so once you get in there, it's, you're, you're up and running. I mean, more and more, you know, I'm being asked for self-tapes because even game, even indie games companies now have their own mocap suits. And even though they won't go to a big place like Centroid and with the void and everything, they'll still want to do mocap. So if you can offer that as well and say, Oh no, I can do that. I can do my own part. I think that's really good.

A: But acting is the most important thing. 

M: Yeah. And I think that's really key. Go out, join an acting group, join an improv group, whatever it is, and work on those acting skills. Adele, it is always such a delight to chat to you. You are going to be running a masterclass for us later this month. So we're really looking forward to that. Please come back on the podcast again, maybe next year or in the future. We'd love to find out more about you. 

A: I'd love to. Thanks, Melissa.

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