The Power of Podcasting,
with Curtis James

Listen to the episode here...

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Welcome to High Notes, a podcast on the art and business of voice. My name is Melissa and I've worked commercially with my voice for over 27 years. In this podcast, I'll be talking to those who consistently hit the high notes in our industry and will be exploring the craft and creativity behind the business. Whether you're a seasoned voice professional or simply curious about the magic that happens in front or behind the microphone, this podcast is your backstage pass to learning just some of the secrets of the trade. Make sure you never miss an episode by subscribing to High Notes on your favourite podcast app. And be sure to check out the show notes at brava.uk.com/podcast for more information about this episode and more.

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Melissa: Hi Curtis. It's really great to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

Curtis: Thank you for inviting me, Mel.

Melissa: I really wanted to invite you on for a chat to talk about your experience of creating and launching a grassroots podcast. For me, I feel like I'm drowning in the amount of podcasts available to listen to these days, and I'm really keen and eager to listen to them.

Melissa: And then I lose interest very quickly. But when I heard your work, I was reminded of the power of using your voice essentially and creating something from scratch and just about creating the work without thinking about numbers and all the other stuff. You're a podcast writer and presenter and you specialise in visual ethnography, research and radical system change, which we're going to talk about in a bit.

Melissa: Definitely a worthy way to earn a living. I'm impressed. But before we get into that, I really want to talk about how everything started for you. Both you and your brother, Simon James are incredible producers and you know, I [00:01:00] always follow your work with great interest. I've been lucky enough to work with you over the years and I loved that experience.

Melissa: Talk to me about your younger days. Were you always drawn to music production and who were your musical and creative influences when you were tiny?

Curtis: I think, first off, Mel, thank you for all those kind words. I, you may not see it, but I'm blushing. I'd have to say, my dad was probably one of the first people. Because, first of all, he called me Curtis because he loved Curtis Mayfield. Right, he was really into his music, really into his music. And there probably was a moment where a record ended up in our house.

Curtis: It was Herbie Hancock. It was called Rocket. I don't know if you remember that song, but it had record scratching on it, right? And I remember, like, when my dad wasn't around, trying to emulate this record scratching on this record. That's one of my first memories of sort of doing something that has obviously led on to what I've ended up doing.

Curtis: , so first off, I would say [00:02:00] my dad. I think after that, , as you've listened to the podcast, you know a little bit about my story , and I didn't do too well at school, but the stuff I loved at school was music and drama and all the technical stuff about that. And so there were a couple of teachers, Mr Hubbard and Mr Hayter, who I guess spotted that in me and, and my brother, 

Curtis: yeah, Simon's been talking about this a lot, really. That was our escape from the academic, you know, we weren't that good at the academic stuff, or we certainly weren't nurtured. I think we could have been good at it, but I don't know if we got the support we needed. And so, that music teacher, I didn't take music, but he did a couple of things.

Curtis: He brought these people in from London with all these synthesizers and record decks and drum machines and samplers and, you know. I'd only ever seen this stuff on Top of the Pops before and I'd lost it after it was I was obsessed with this new technology that was sort of around that you could do all this crazy stuff with sound and we got to play on this stuff and I would say that that day at school where [00:03:00] those people came in was a massive turning point for me inside because I think from that point on I knew I wanted to do something with music or I didn't know it was radio at that point.

Curtis: But I knew I wanted to make music and, and he, he basically, after we left school, he lent her some of his own personal equipment. So, you know, there's a lot there about trust. You know, I've been thinking a lot about that recently, you know, that sometimes as a kid, you don't feel that trusted or you don't feel that sort of, like you belong. And, and Mr. Hayter, who sadly passed away, um, a few years back, um, did trust us. And so he lent us his own equipment, he helped us apply for a Prince's Trust grant, which meant we could buy our own equipment. We signed a record deal a year later, John Peel was playing our record on Radio One not long after. And, and that, that's the sort of, in a nutshell, where it sort of started.

Melissa: It's so fascinating to hear. I know over the years we've talked about these things in various establishments. We worked together at SURF, I think is where I met you. Uh, radio station in Brighton. [00:04:00] But, you know, what an interesting story and, you know, with everything going on today, where there's this just kind of ridiculous emphasis on academia and the creative industries, you know, we'll talk about that in a minute, about how they're becoming the preserve of the middle class and much of which is covered in your podcast.

Melissa: But it's interesting to know that. was your direct experience just picking up on signing the record deal. I have to ask, what was that experience like?

Curtis: It was, it was very, um, exciting. And the first record deal we signed was quite like a tiny little label. And in fact, weirdly, in a couple of weeks time, I'm going to meet the guy who signed us, Dave Clark. He's like a techno DJ. He's playing near where I live, which is really weird. I haven't seen him for decades.

Curtis: Um, it was, it was cool. You know, I remember, like, when they sent the test pressing to us, and it arrived in the post. And, you know, for probably more than, yeah, more than ten years, I'd been buying records and, and then for this thing to arrive in the post, like [00:05:00] our own record with something we'd made on it, it was magical.

Curtis: It was absolutely, I just couldn't believe it. And yeah, it was, it was very cool and quite exciting.
Melissa: I can't imagine what that must've felt like to just get that in the post and to touch it and to feel it. Um, what was it

Curtis: smell it.

Melissa: to smell it? Yeah.

Curtis: smell. Yeah.

Melissa: Um, what was it like working with your brother? I know, you know, I mean, you two look so similar, obviously for people that don't know. Um, but you know, you two are so close, but what was that experience like?

Melissa: Were there any challenges within that?

Curtis: Yeah, of course. I mean, look, like we're twins, we're super close, but. We also have all sorts of creative differences and, you know, and also, you know, when you're that close to someone, you say, you can say stuff to each other that you'd never say to a colleague, right? You would never ever treat a colleague like that.

Curtis: And yeah, we've had our ups and downs. We've had all sorts of experiences, but we always come back together. And, you know, I would say, I didn't mention Simon as an [00:06:00] influence, but he clearly is an influence because I think, you know, the lack of support we got from other areas. has been made up for by the lack of support we've been able to give each other, and I don't know if I could have done what I've done without him.

Curtis: Um, and I hope he thinks the same.

Melissa: I'm sure he does. Both of you are such lovely people. Uh, tell me about how you started working in the arts and creative industries. You know, what happened after you'd signed to that label and what took you into kind of production and radio if that was your first gig?

Curtis: Yeah, so I mean I had all sorts of like little jobs when I was sort of starting out in music. I used to work at The Dome doing lighting there in Brighton. So that's the sort of main theatre or the biggest theatre in Brighton. Um, and so I was doing all sorts of things like that, that were sort of touching on the sides of creative industries.

Curtis: Um, but But around the time when our first record came out, I was introduced to a guy called Daniel Nathan, who was setting up, or had set up one of the first [00:07:00] RSL radio stations, and for those that don't know it, RSL stands for Restricted Service License, and back in the sort of 90s, you couldn't That just didn't exist.

Curtis: I mean, Daniel and Eugene, they pretty much invented the RSL license or for the ability for you to broadcast across a small space like Brighton. And so I was introduced to Daniel, um, and I just, uh, he was, he was running this radio station called Festival Radio that happened during, during the Brighton Festival in May.

 

Curtis: And I just lived at the radio station. I mean, I, I, I mean, I, I, My parents must have wondered where the hell I was because I was sort of, I think, 17 or 18 and I was just there all the time getting involved in everything and I was just having to make it up as I went along and, you know, I ended up sort of producing shows like Captain Sensible and all sorts of people that, you know, I mean, maybe younger viewers may not know who Captain Sensible is but at the time, you know, he was a name, he was in The Damned and quite, you know, so yeah, I was hanging around with [00:08:00] these people that I'd sort of only ever heard on the radio or stuff like that.

 

Curtis: So, yeah, it was a cool experience. And, you know, I mean, I've been thinking a lot about the barriers, right, to get into this world. And, and, you know, one of the things that's very different then to now is that we had a benefit system. We had a social security system that almost encouraged me to do that stuff.

 

Melissa: Mm.

 

Curtis: certainly weren't pressuring me to go and sort of just take any job or just to earn money wherever I could. I, for some reason, they saw that there was a benefit there to me learning about this stuff and that it could be potentially a thing that's good for my career. Um, that's really different now, and I know we're going to talk a bit about those barriers in a sec, but that, that, that, that enabled me to pretty much, I always see it as my unofficial degree, you know.

Melissa: because I remember reading recently, maybe it was Jarvis Cocker or Damon Albarn, one of the two talking about it was the benefit system that enabled that 90s explosion of [00:09:00] artists. And of course that, you know, as far as I'm aware, that's kind of disappeared now. I have a big smile on my face when you talk about.

Melissa: Daniel and Festival Radio. I didn't work directly with Daniel, but I certainly met him when I was at Surf. Uh, Eugene was my boss there at Surf, and that's where I met you. And I have to say, I didn't know it at the time, but looking back, it was one of the best jobs I've ever had. I mean, there was a lot of partying.

 

Melissa: Um, but every, I remember getting to Brighton and meeting you all and being really sort of, you know, I wasn't a shy person, put it that way, but I remember meeting all of you, every single person thinking. Whoa, here are people that are as driven and creative. Some of you are as loud as I was. Some of you weren't, but everyone had massive personalities and completely welcomed me in.

Melissa: And to this day, I will always have a big smile on my face working and meeting with you, Billy Pink, Lance Dan, Eugene Pereira, so many more. So that was where I met you. And we had such a laugh. [00:10:00] Anyway, I won't go on too much about the good old days. I want to move a little bit more now into your work. I want to pick up on a recent report in the creative industries found that less than 10 percent of creatives working in film , TV, music and the arts are from working class backgrounds.

 

Melissa: It definitely feels like we're going backwards on issues of representation and diversity. For me, I do a lot of work behind the scenes, mostly just talking to people, not trying to post things on Facebook about how much I'm doing. It's more so that we can, I can understand the issues because I'm telling you, you were all drowning in trying to understand this stuff.

 

Melissa: Um, I want to reference a moment in your podcast I think it's episode one. That moment where you were told by a teacher that you'll never amount to anything. It just stopped me in my tracks. I feel upset just talking about it now, having children. Has your life since, um, then been about proving them [00:11:00] wrong?
Melissa: And is this what led you to create Class Divide?

 

Curtis: Yeah, I mean, that was definitely, you know, a moment that has lived with me. You know, I think, you know, as a kid, you know, I was 16 at that point. Maybe at that moment it didn't resonate with me in the way that it does now. Like you say, you've got kids. I've had a kid. The thought that an adult, specifically a teacher, would say something like that to a child.

 

Curtis: And, you know, I don't want to go into too much detail, but at the time I was a young carer for a mentally ill mum, that heavily affected my ability to, to sort of learn at school. He would have been aware of that stuff. You know, to have someone say something like that to you, the mind boggles. You know, even if it, even if he was sort of joking, it still is a weird thing to say.

 

Curtis: Um, and yeah, that along with a bunch of other things has definitely given me the sort of [00:12:00] energy that I, that I need to work on class divide. Um, you know, it's one of many things that sort of drives me every day when I think, God, like, no kid should have to be in a position where they feel like that, they have something like that said to them, or they walk out of school not being given the chances that other, more privileged kids, kids might have been given.

 

Melissa: Do you think that moment has lodged within you? Do you think that's been the key driver for everything you've done since?

 

Curtis: Um, I think it's one of the things, I mean that's, that's not the only time I've had something like that said to me actually. I, one of the things, um, when I was signing on, there was a period where I was actually forced to go and do some work experience. And I had to go and do some work experience, I won't name, I won't name him, um, cause he, I think he's still around.

 

Curtis: But he was like a mobile DJ, and I, I was forced to go and work for him for two weeks. And it was crazy, it was in his house, and he had And [00:13:00] at the end of the two weeks, he called me into his office and he said, you are never ever going to be more than a chicken plucker. I want you to leave right now. So I've had, I've had other experiences, uh, like that.

 

Curtis: And, you know, again, you know, I mean, it's funny actually, because my brother actually made contact with him, um, a few years back when I was 40, Simon made, a record for me, like a one off record, like a vinyl record, 40 minutes of audio of my life. And he tracked down all these people and that guy was one of them.

 

Curtis: He went to him and said, will you record a little message for my brother? So he's on this vinyl record. So yeah, I'm not going to name him. I

 

Melissa: What did he say? What did he say?

 

Curtis: When my brother caught, when my brother met with him. I think he'd forgotten the negativity. I think he was sort of like, Oh, lovely.

 

Curtis: I'm really, it's really good to hear Curtis is doing all this cool stuff. You know, like, maybe I helped with that.

 

Melissa: Yeah, you know what? It's funny. I mean, when you look back to [00:14:00] those years, we were all very strong characters, but I think when, when people did talk to us like that, I mean, obviously I've had experiences of being female or half Indian. No one really knows I'm half Indian because I don't look it. But anyway, um, And we just kind of dealt with it and got on with it all black or blocked it out or did something.

 

Melissa: But what we didn't do was talk to anyone about it. It's a bizarre thing now when you look at kind of the current state of affairs. But, you know, I know you and you are one of the most intelligent, creative, kind people I've ever met. And to have done all that despite being told those things, I think is, is incredible.

 

Melissa: So anyway, um, we will move on to talking about the podcast. So tell me about what led you to create Class Divide. How did it come to fruition and what is it about and what is its aim?

Curtis: Okay, so I mean, before Class Divide, there was a, there was a basically an education campaign group that [00:15:00] I wasn't part of right at the start, um, but the point of that education campaign group was to improve the chances for kids from the council estate that I grew up on. So it's a place called Whitehawk, it's in the east of Brighton.

Curtis: And for those that don't know, you know, Brighton's, Brighton's got this image right of being this cool, fun place, progressive, liberal, open to anything. But actually, if you scratch beneath the surface, it is one of the most unequal, segregated places in the country. You know, you've got areas of absolute poverty and, you know, real sort of difficult situations.

Curtis: And I don't actually think a lot of people in Brighton realise that. Um, so, I got involved in this education campaign, and then we ended up coming up with the name Class Divide. Um, which really seemed to fit. Um, I can't take the credit for the name. Um, one of the other volunteers came up with the name.

Curtis: And, so that was about four or five years ago. And since then, we've been campaigning basically to close the attainment gap. So, you know, if [00:16:00] you grow up in the estate that I grew up on, you have a 32 percent less chance of getting basic GCSE grades compared to kids in the rest of the city, right? So that's just one figure.

Curtis: You're twice as likely to be excluded. Um, you know, the data is terrible and it's been like that for decades. In fact, it's got worse. Um, and so the whole campaign is basically about trying to fix the issues. that caused those, those, those awful, um, stats. And, and, and obviously the reason I did the podcast is because those stats only tell a bit of the story, right?

Curtis: The data is sort of just numbers. And right from the start of my involvement, I started recording interviews with all sorts of people. I was recording the meetings we were having. I didn't really know what I was going to do with it. I knew I kept saying to people, yeah, I'm going to do a podcast series. So there were about a year, there was about a year or so.

Curtis: Well, I just thought people just think I'm making this up. They're going to say to me, when are you going to make this thing? Um, and then, I, I did an interview with Carlie, who's the [00:17:00] co-founder of, of Class Divide and features, she's the main sort of person in, in the podcast story. I did an interview with her, the first interview I'd done with her, and she told me her story.

Curtis: Um, and when I heard this story, I just sort of knew immediately, this is This is the story that will run through the series. This is such an important story and I think it can glue the whole series together. And then I needed to ask her and her family if they would even let me, me do that. Um, which is a big ask.

Curtis: You know, we're basically, I'm asking a family who, you know, have grown up in the same estate as me, who have had challenges, who've had difficult times, to bare their souls, right? And I don't know if, as producers, There's always a lot of thought about that. It's often just let's just get the story out there.

Curtis: And so I, because of a lot of the other work I do, the ethnography work and all of that stuff, I think a lot about the ethics of storytelling, the ethics of doing this stuff, asking people to recount their [00:18:00] stories and the trauma that that can bring up just by having to tell a story again. And so, you know, I paid attention to all of that stuff and was really, really careful, um, to make sure that I didn't, I didn't do any more damage.

Curtis: Luckily they were up for it. Luckily they were up for being interviewed. And I guess from that moment on, I was able to sort of plot the series out and do all that sort of hard work of like, right, I've got this core idea. Who's going to help tell this story? What other people do we need to have in the program?

 

Curtis: And so there was just a two year period where I just, basically knuckled down and did a lot of writing, a lot of research, interviewed a hell of a lot of people. I didn't, I was trying to remember the, the amount of hours of interviews I did for that, for that series. I mean, it was, it was a lot. Um, but, but I loved it.

 

Curtis: I absolutely loved it. And, you know, to, I managed to get a tiny bit of funding in to make, to make the series. And if I could do that all the time, it's what I'd be doing, you know, but [00:19:00] it's so hard to fund that stuff, as you know.

Melissa: I think what's coming up immediately for me is the difference between a producer coming on board, having sponsorship, getting a podcast out as quickly as possible and being an artist, right? You gave yourself the time, which is such a luxury, right? You didn't even know what the story was going to be. You went out and recorded all these conversations.

Melissa: I mean, I know from a fact, you know, from working in this industry, that that's not the case. And that's not how a lot of podcasts get made, right? It's about numbers. It's about this, that and the other. And that's why I think I connected with the podcast. I just thought it's so meticulously researched. It's beautifully produced.

Melissa: I mean, everything's like, Oh, that's so good for me. You know, it's like, Oh, that sounds great. Oh, the music's really good. Um, I just think it's, it's a brilliant podcast. So really interesting to hear how that came about and that you gave yourself that time because you know, you're not earning during that time.

Melissa: I'm [00:20:00] guessing. Yeah.

Curtis: I, I'm really lucky, I guess, over that period. I had a few bits of commercial work from, from quite big clients that pay good day rates. And, you know, like all of my, my stuff for Class Divide really is all subsidised by that work. you know, and it's a real juggling act, um, to sort of manage my time.

Curtis: Um, but yeah, it enabled me, it really enabled me to sort of put the time in that I think it deserved it, right? You know, like someone said to me recently, like, you've done the work of what journalism should be doing, and I'm not, I'm not a trained journalist. But, and I think he was making the point really about local journalism as well, which we've also lost.

Curtis: You know, we've lost, like, who, which local journalists have the time to spend two years delving into the backstory of an education disaster in Brighton? And yet, that did need to happen. You know, someone needs to tell that story.

Melissa: Yeah, again, this is what comes out of being the [00:21:00] artist within it. You know, uh, for me, when I access news stories now, I just read the headlines. It's all economist style, isn't it? You know, and I have to check myself and think, okay, this is why I'm accessing podcasts like this, because I need to learn more about these issues.

Melissa: I don't, and I need to deeply understand them, not talk about them. And if they're not my issues, I just want to learn. So that's what I think is so interesting about. your podcast, because you've given it the time to come about. I'm really pleased about its success. It was nominated for an ARIA's award earlier this year.

Melissa: Disclaimer. I was a judge, but not for the, your category, clearly. Um, I was so happy about that. I think the nomination is testament itself to the impact it's had. I've talked about the production values. Also, what I loved about it was the story doesn't just focus on the negatives, which perhaps journalists might do.

Melissa: It's so much more nuanced than that. There was so much joy in it, in some of the memories, the recounting of the disco on the [00:22:00] estate. I mean, I remember a similar thing. I didn't grow up on an estate like you in that way, but it just took me right back to those years. And it was a really happy memory. And there's lots of those peppered, I think, throughout the podcast.

Melissa: I'm guessing this was never about numbers for you. Can you tell me how the podcast has been successful?

Curtis: Yeah, I mean, just to go back a little bit as well, like, just thinking about, When I was making it, I thought a lot about who the audience was, right? And I think when you think about grassroots stuff, I think it's quite easy to go down the route of making stuff for your own echo chamber. And I was very, very conscious that the people that I knew would love this.

Curtis: They already knew it. They knew what needs to change. They know how bad it is. And so it was never really made for those people. It was made for all the people who I knew needed to think differently about the [00:23:00] place I grew up in. Needed to think differently about kids from council estates. Now I often sort of describe the podcast series as my love letter to Whitehawk.

Curtis: You know, this idea that I was sort of trying to do something that in some way might change the perceptions, the negative stigma and perceptions about places like Whitehawk. So, so back to your question about what the impact's been. I mean, the headline is that at the start of this year, Brighton Hove City Council enacted a new policy that's come really directly from our campaigning, that will see children on free school meals.

Curtis: given priority in the secondary school admissions process, which is just one thing that we've been calling for. And, and what that policy means in reality is that schools across Brighton, which are currently quite segregated, you know, you've got one school that's got only 15 percent of its kids on free school meals and another with 46%.

Curtis: And what this will do is even that out. And there's tons of [00:24:00] research to show that schools with a more mixed group of students from different socio economic backgrounds do really well. The teachers are happier, the students get to mix with all sorts of different people, it's good for learning, it's good for society.

Curtis: So in simple terms, this policy we hope, if it's enacted properly, will create that situation over the next few years. So, so people that are picking their schools for their secondary schools in September will, if their kids are on free school meals, will be able to choose any school across Brighton.

Melissa: Wow.

Curtis: So yeah, that's one outcome from, from the podcast series.

Curtis: And I mean, I mean, me and Carlie were in the council chamber when the vote was happening for this, for this policy change. I mean, Carlie was in tears and, you know, I, I was sort of like, just gobsmacked. You know, the, you know, and our, you know, the person in chambers was talking about Class Divide and its sort of impact on these changes.

Curtis: And so. That's just one thing, but that's a pretty big deal. You know, I mean, it's quite hard to change policies.

Melissa: It really is. I mean, first of all, [00:25:00] congratulations to you and Carlie and the team, but also, you know, What an incredible outcome in a very short space of time. What was it particularly, do you think, that enabled them to listen? I mean, was it the fact that it was the storytelling that they were able to immerse themselves in all the research that you've done?

Melissa: I mean, what was it specifically, do you think, that made them listen? Um,

Curtis: mean, I think there's probably a few things to mention that are quite important to these changes. There were local elections going on at the time that the series was coming out. I didn't time that. I didn't, like, pick that moment. That was just a happy coincidence, really, and you know, the people that got voted in had been listening to the podcast series, you know, they'd been to, we organised some hustings in Whitehawk, we invited all the potential candidates for councillors and, you know, there were people from the Labour Party there who, who ended up basically taking control of the council.

Curtis: I think it just, you've mentioned [00:26:00] like the storytelling and the, there's something about the way that Carlie and her brothers talk about their lives that is Like, it's not a sob story, it's true, it is, I don't want to use the word authentic, but whatever the better word for authentic is. You know, it's, it just doesn't feel contrived and there's just something about the sensitivity of it.

Curtis: Um, and I think that's partly because you don't often hear stuff made by someone from a place like that. about people from places like that. Normally you'd probably more likely to have a middle class producer drop into a situation, doesn't really know the people and doesn't really connect on that level.

Curtis: Whereas I've been able to spend tons of time with people so that you know, we, we sort of feel at ease with each other and people open up and, you know, so I think people just, just heard that, they heard those stories and the mix of data, [00:27:00] the mix of story and a mix of local experts, you know, I call the residents in Brighton local experts because they are experts in, in what's been going on in the estate.

Curtis: and those experts from further afield. So, you know, we had people from Finland and all across the country and Darren McGarvey, who's, you know, brilliant author and has written lots of stuff on education and poverty and all sorts of things. So we had some really amazing guests. Um, I just think, and the music, I mean, you mentioned the music, I think because of our joint backgrounds, right, obviously we've known a lot of people in the music industry.

Curtis: I was really, really lucky that Fat Cat Records and all sorts of people helped. you know, support the project by letting me use some of their music. And, you know, that's like actually one of the hardest things

Melissa: I know, I was going to ask you

Curtis: music for podcasts, right? So, you know, I was very lucky to be given that music for free.

Melissa: Yeah. Have you got a playlist we can share with the

Curtis: There is a playlist on Spotify, actually. Yeah, we'll include the link in the show notes,

Melissa: Yeah. Thank you. [00:28:00] Thank you. I noticed you see, um, I, I mean, I just thought it was such a considered piece of work. And one of the things that drew me in was that it didn't feel like I was being lectured by just one side of the story. I felt like Carlie was the bridge between two sides, obviously with her story, which I won't go into now, listen to the podcast, but I feel that, you know, Obviously that bridge enabled anybody to be able to access the story and to listen to it, depending on which, which background you had.

Melissa: So that's what came across to me.

Curtis: Yeah,

Melissa: I wish it all the success, for sure. I mean, I just think it's a brilliant piece of work. It's one of the best podcasts I've listened to in, in such a long time. Um, but we'll talk about the future of that in a minute. Were you going to just say something else there?

Curtis: Yeah, I was just gonna say, just about, um, voice, and voices, and, and, um, Someone said something to me the other day about accents, um, they'd listen to it, and they were like, Do you think [00:29:00] people really got into it because you and Carlie have softened your accents? Because you maybe don't sound like, you know, you're sort of you know, from Whitehawk anymore or, and I think that's quite an interesting point.

Curtis: You know, there's a big conversation I think to be had around accents and I know you'd be, you're very interested in that with your work. Um, you know, I think that's an interesting point and it's something I hadn't considered that would people have listened to it as much if you know, I hadn't had public speaking training and changed my

Melissa: you had public speaking

Curtis: Well, not public speaking training, but I've had lessons, I've, I've been to classes.

Curtis: around my accent and, and how I speak. So yeah, yeah, partly shamed, partly shamed into it. You know, I was, I was, um, I was, cause I was having to do a bit more public speaking. I started going to this, I mean, I didn't enjoy it at all. It's called Toastmasters. It's like this weird [00:30:00] American, feels like a cult. Um, sorry, don't sue me.

Curtis: Um, it's not a cult. That's just me joking. Um, but, um, so I was, I was going to these sort of sessions, like these evening sessions, and after I did my first talk at one of these evening sessions in front of a group of other people, part of this group, someone came up to me and said, I think the content was really good, but have you considered your accent?

Curtis: You know, have you considered how you sound? Because I think people will trust you a bit more if you think about some of the way you say things and, and I'm, I'm sort of almost embarrassed to say. I sort of, I ended up basically sort of going and doing some classes to, to sort of work on some of that stuff.

Melissa: Oh, well, you know what? We'll, we'll talk about this in the pub because I've got a lot to say about this, as you know, and, um, that is the most horrendous thing anyone can ever say. In the olden days, there was a lot of accent ironing that occurred with people that wanted to move to British RP. We'll talk about this so much, but first of all, I'm really sorry that that [00:31:00] happened.

Melissa: Secondly, we absolutely want to hear your natural voice. Um, you know, I think that's really, really important. Thirdly, the impact that that has. is as horrendous as that teacher saying to you, you'll never amount to anything. And clearly these things have really stuck with you. You know, when, I think when people have said things to me in the past, I've been a real fighter.

Melissa: I've been like, I won't swear, but you know, I'm, I don't know if I've had those sorts of things occur to me and for them to have lodged in me. We have actually got, An incredible accent and dialect coach coming over from America to work with us. And I am going, I would, I'm going to send him your podcast and I'm going to see if he'll listen to an episode, which I'm sure he will, cause he's delightful.

Melissa: And I can't wait to hear what he says about accents on it. So we'll meet in the pub. We'll talk about this much, much more. You mentioned voices. I want to move on to talking about the voice. I know from working with you over the years that you [00:32:00] have never wanted to be in front of the mic. I remember doing, uh, the Heineken Caribbean DJ show with you, which is probably the best, one of the best gigs I've ever had.

Melissa: You know, you were just a delight to work with. You just sent it to me and recorded it for three or four years, I think it was. Um,

Curtis: I think, yeah.

Melissa: it was like, here's the Heineken gig again. I was like, yes. Uh, what changed your mind on this one? Cause I know that that's not something that you would have naturally.

Melissa: moved towards in the past. How did it feel to lend your voice to this and to co-host Class Divide?

Curtis: I, I can't actually remember the moment where I went from, you know, working on it in the way that I'd always worked on stuff, which is, I interview people and I always say, don't worry I'm going to take my own voice out of it, I'm going to, and so you need to repeat the question and the answer because I won't be in it, and so I can't remember the point with working on this when I went from treating it like that to, no I'm going to be in this.

Curtis: Um, [00:33:00] but I think, um, I think when I sort of properly knuckled down after that first year of sort of research and recording interviews. it weirdly just felt like the most natural thing to do. Didn't feel comfortable, wasn't a comfortable natural feeling, um, but it just felt like, I think someone said to me, you know, your story is in this too, right?

Curtis: You can't not include your story in this. And it feels like the most obvious thing to include, you know, you've got Carlie, you've got her brothers as the core story, but of course I went to the same school as her brothers, right? So, You know, it, it just, it felt natural in one way, but at the same time, you know, whenever I had to record stuff or, you know, like that voice in your head, it's like, am I saying that the right way?

Curtis: Have I got the right intonation there? What, like, what's my tone? Am I just going to sound really monotone? And yeah, I mean, it was quite difficult to record actually, um, [00:34:00] and sort of put myself out there and wondering what the hell are people going to think? you know, of, of me being in this thing. And, you know, all of that stuff to do with, you know, I know people talk all the time about imposter syndrome and, um, but, you know, that was there, you know, this idea that I can carry this show and people are going to trust me to tell this story.

Curtis: Um, even calling myself a writer on it, you know, I, I mean, I was really lucky to work with this excellent executive producer, Eve Streeter, who, you know, sort of just shepherded me through the whole process. After, you know, I've done tons on it, she came in in the last year and just helped me glue the thing together, just helped me sort of refine the writing and, and I guess gave me the confidence to feel like, yes, this could be a thing I could be in, this is a thing I can write for, um, and I'd never felt that before.

Melissa: you pick up on so many [00:35:00] things that we specialise in here at BRAVA. I work with all sorts of people, creatives, CEOs, you know, in the corporate world and as voice actors and performers. And one of the things we specialise in is breaking down all the bullshit and acknowledging that every single person I've worked with has imposter syndrome.

Melissa: All of us have it at times. Some of us have it more than others. And it's about understanding that that's just the tiny element of your body, the brain, talking to you. and learning how to mitigate that and how to flip it on its head and how to physicalise what you're doing is something that we do a lot of.

Melissa: So you are not alone in that. Every single person I have ever worked with at any level of their career experiences these things. And once you understand that, it becomes much easier to kind of get over those things. And the biggest barrier to doing anything is a lack of confidence. So you've just basically highlighted it.

Melissa: Everything we do, I guess, but I'm more than happy anytime [00:36:00] to sit down with you and go through some stuff. So, you know, when you come to Bristol or if I come to Brighton, we can have a bigger chat about it, but I appreciate you being so honest about those things because a lot of people aren't, right? Um,

Curtis: me tell you, I mean, I'll tell you something, you know, you mentioned the ARIA nomination. Um, I went to the event the other day, and I tell you, my imposter syndrome was like times a million. I actually did not enjoy the experience at

Melissa: we were supposed to go together and I couldn't go because I was off on a working trip. Um,

Curtis: just didn't feel like I belonged there.

Curtis: It was really so, such a weird experience.

Melissa: I should have totally been there with you. Next year, if we're

Curtis: Well, if I'm nominated

Melissa: you will be, because you'll make some other brilliant, you know, series two, whatever will come out. But, um, You know, I'm going to come with you next year and we're going to have a great time and yeah, we'll talk about that in a bit, you know, those events are difficult.

Melissa: I went to the NOMS, uh, event and I've been to, I mean, did you go to the years [00:37:00] ago with Surf? I went to an event at the Grosvenor House Hotel. Okay, nevermind. Eugene was there. It's another story. Um, yeah. These days, it's really hard. You know, all of us are sober and, um, you don't have the added value of a couple of drinks to kind of loosen you up as much.

Melissa: And what I've learned, you know, when I moved to America, I found that everybody was so much more gracious and accepting. And then when I came back to the UK, I thought, my God, we're a judgmental bunch. You know, there's all this kind of silent sizing up happening and I'm just completely all over that and what I've found only in my experience is it's always me that's the first person to go up and go, Hi, who are you?

Melissa: Or, Hi, how are you doing? I haven't seen you for ages. And then everyone's fine. But it doesn't often happen the other way around. So I am totally behind you. We're going to go next year. We're gonna have a great time. I'm really sorry to hear that it felt like that. What do you think it was about that event that made you feel like that?

Curtis: I mean, look, a lot of this is my stuff, right? So I'm not, not suggesting anyone necessarily did [00:38:00] anything wrong to me.

Melissa: No, no.

Curtis: I think, I mean, it's just, it just connects, doesn't it? To, you know, the stuff you were mentioning earlier about, you know, the awful data about the amount of people from my background that work in this industry.

Curtis: And so that stuff is, whether or not it's conscious or subconscious in my mind, I feel like I've got a massive sign over my head saying, like, this guy does not belong here, like he doesn't have qualifications, he doesn't, like all of that stuff that I have built up over the years. Um, and yeah, it was just, it was just, it was just a sort of strange out of body experience.

Curtis: And I don't normally go to those sorts of things, right? It's not really, so even without all of that, it's quite a strange experience. You're around all these people at the top of their game who, and I know a lot of them will also be feeling some similar things, Probably just a bit better at hiding it, you know, and not letting it consume them.

Curtis: Whereas for me, I'm like urgh!!!

Curtis: First of all, can I just say, you're at the top of your game. Is [00:39:00] the difference that you don't even think that. Why are they at the top of their game? And why aren't you? included in that. You are a fantastic producer. You're so creative. Everything you do is done with such clear intent, you know, that I would say you're perhaps miles above those people.

Melissa: So this is just about your own self perception, isn't it? And maybe we don't tell each other these things enough because I've never sat down and said that to you, really. But now that we're having this podcast talk, it's like, well, I'm going to say these things. And I, you know, I, this is why. People do need coaching sometimes, they need support, they need to have someone in their corner, they need someone to help them bring out what's already there.

Melissa: You know, in the coaching we do, we're not saying, here let's teach you something new, we're saying, this is how to kind of be yourself in public, right? So, yeah, I'm just, I'm just sad I couldn't go because we would have had a brilliant time, I know that, but there's next year and I know you're going to be there.

Melissa: Okay, let's move on then [00:40:00] to the future holds. What, what's next for you? Series two of Class Divide, no doubt. Is there anything else?

Curtis: Class Divide is sort of moving into a new phase And, you know, separately from the podcast, you know, we've, we've got this new mission. I mean, it's been the mission we've had for ages, but we're just sort of reframing it. You know, we basically want to make Brighton and Hove the best place to grow up, the best place to learn if you come from a lower socioeconomic background.

Curtis: And That's our mission in a nutshell and there's a whole load of other things we want to do around that. Um, so there's a lot of campaign that's going to be happening over the next sort of year or so. Um, I mean this summer we're pushing for two more policy changes that that will help get closer to that that point and we're really hoping the city is going to get behind that and for the city to get behind that there needs to be a bit more storytelling and a little bit more of that stuff happening [00:41:00] and we've got I mean We've had an exhibition happening in Brighton Festival this year, happened in May.

Curtis: And again that's a continuation of the podcast, the storytelling, um, you know, it's made by young people in Whitehawk. It's, you know, made with my brother, Simon. It's a sound art exhibition that tells a whole load of crazy stories about Neolithic times, but also living on a council estate. And the aim of it, right, is to get a whole bunch of people in the city centre to come along and think differently about Whitehawk.

Curtis: Um, so, so we're going to be doing more stuff like that. And podcast, I mean, I've got a list of episode ideas. I've got interviews I've already done. I've got a list of people I want to interview. I don't have any funding to make that show. Um, and I think that's always the biggest challenge, you know. I think, like, finding a way to spend the time I need to write that, to research it, to do all of that is, is tricky at the moment.

Curtis: And, you know, I [00:42:00] think it's a sort of the funding world is, is, is difficult at the moment, you know, um, as you know, and even having time to apply for funding and to go searching for funding, let alone know where those funding opportunities are, yeah, it's, it's tricky. So yes, I really want to make series two.

Curtis: If anyone watching, listening to this, wants to chuck a load of money at Class Divide to help us do some grassroots, high-quality storytelling, then let me know.

Melissa: Yeah, send us the link to support and we'll definitely include that in the show notes. Let's be really honest, making a podcast is hard work, right? What would your advice be to those who would like to create and launch their own show?

Curtis: Um, get rich parents? Change your parents?

Melissa: the same old story,

Curtis: Yeah. No, no, that's, that's me being silly. Um, yeah, you can't change your parents. Um, I would say, um, if You've got to be [00:43:00] clear on two things. Like, what's the point of doing it? What do you want an audience to to think, to do, to feel, to say to other people, like after they've listened to it.

Curtis: What's the point of it? Um, beyond you wanting to put your voice on something or tell a particular story. And if you're really clear on who that audience is and what you want them to do, what's the story you're going to share with them to help them? to help them sort of get to that point, to help them get closer to that point.

Curtis: Um, so it's all about story and audience for me, um, before you do much else.

Melissa: so, such wise words. So many things are going through my head. Number one. Bristol has a very similar makeup, I think, to Brighton in the sense of it has one of the highest areas of affluence situated right next to some of the most socially deprived areas in the UK. I used to run a children's literacy charity many, many years [00:44:00] ago.

Melissa: So when I was listening to the podcast and you had the guest on talking about the importance of a language rich home, which is what Carlie experienced, I was all over it. Um, and I kept thinking, could you bring your work to Bristol. Is that something you could do?

Curtis: Yeah, and, and that's part of the plan. Not necessarily Bristol, we haven't picked Bristol yet, but, you know, like Brighton and Hove, we're trying to build a case study there, right? We're trying to build a, you know, a clear story that if you do these things, you make these changes. It's going to have a really positive impact.

Curtis: So we're working with UCL, Bristol University, Sussex University on a big research project that will basically cut, like, watch over and research the implementation of this first policy change. And we're looking at other places where this is needed. Um, whilst at the same time finding ways to put pressure on national policy, because unfortunately it's national policy that's holding actually quite a lot of changes.

Curtis: So one really simple example, we've got a lot of [00:45:00] academy schools now, and the issue with academies are that local authorities don't control their admissions process. So if any other city or town wanted to do a similar thing to what Brighton and Hove have done, they'd find it really difficult if they've got lots of academies in their town or city.

Curtis: Um, so You know, there's changes like that that we want to push through. We're really interested in making sure this stuff spreads and amplifies across the country.

Melissa: Well, listen, sadly, we've got to wrap it up. You know, I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours about all sorts of things. Congratulations on what I think is a brilliant piece of work. I wish it all the success. We'll put all the links to the music and the funding in the show notes, but until next time, Curt, thank you so much.

Curtis: Thank you for having me, Mel. It's been a pleasure.​​​

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